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Subject: chattanooga.html

        1                    PUBLIC LISTENING SESSION




        5                   ANIMAL FEEDING OPERATIONS



        8                --------------------------------


       10                        DECEMBER 9, 1998

       11                         4:00 - 7:00 PM




       15                  ----------------------------




       19                   MODERATOR: DR. BILLY HICKS

       20                              DEAN

       21                    UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE

       22                 AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION SERVICE




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        2     GLENDA HUMISTON,
              Deputy Under Secretary
        3     for Natural Resources and Environment

        4     JAMES FORD,
        5     State Conservationist for Tennessee

        6     MIKE MCGHEE,
        7     Water Management Division
              EPA Region 4
              LOUIS BUCK,
        9     Assistant Commissioner
              Tennessee Department of Agriculture
              PAUL DAVIS,
       11     Director
              Tennessee Division of Water Pollution Control
              FRED LINDSEY,
       13     Deputy Director
              Office of Waster Water Management
              WILL HALL,
       15     Team Leader
              National APO Strategy
       16     EPA Headquarters

       17     JOE DELVECCHIO
              Team Leader
       18     National AFP Strategy
              USDA Headquarters







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        2     JAMES SIMS,
        3     Tennessee Conservation Engineer

        4     ROGER PFAFF
              Program Manager
        5     Water Programs Enforcement Branch

        7     Surface Water Permits Section
              EPA Region 4

        9     STEVE CARMICHAEL,
       10     Liaison to EPA, Region 4
















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        1                      MR. LINDSEY:  Good afternoon, ladies

        2          and gentlemen.

        3                      I'm Deputy Director of the Office of

        4          Waste Water Management at EPA, and I would like

        5          to start by thanking each and every one of you

        6          for taking time out of your busy schedules to

        7          come down here today and share with us your

        8          thoughts, your concerns and whatever issues you

        9          may have related to this Animal Feeding Operation

       10          Strategy Draft that the EPA and Department of

       11          Agriculture have put together.

       12                      This is the eighth of twelve of these

       13          listening sections that we're conducting across

       14          the country.  We'll finish this process next

       15          week.

       16                      The Draft Unified Strategy came about

       17          as a result of direction which we got from the

       18          president back in February, that the two agencies

       19          participated, along with other agencies, in

       20          something called the Clean Water Action Plan.

       21                      It's a -- the Clean Water Action Plan

       22          is a list of some hundred activities and actions

       23          that the president wants various federal agencies

       24          to take to get on with and finish the job of

       25          protecting our nation's surface waters from the

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        1          human health and environmental perspective.  And

        2          the National Strategy for Animal Feeding

        3          Operations was a major plank in this Clean Water

        4          Action Plan.

        5                      I think the -- no one would disagree

        6          that over the last twenty years or so there have

        7          been some rather dramatic changes in the animal

        8          feeding industry, and this has certainly promoted

        9          some public concern, and we think that's

       10          demonstrated the need for a nationally consistent

       11          approach to protecting public health and the

       12          environment.

       13                      Certainly, production technology has

       14          changed and there has been some centralization of

       15          the industry in various areas, and individual

       16          operations have certainly gotten larger over

       17          time.

       18                      What we're trying to do with the

       19          strategy is to develop a protective level playing

       20          field on a national basis by developing national

       21          performance expectations for these kind of

       22          operations.  And we recognize that in order to

       23          preserve, not only health and the environment,

       24          but also to maintain a sustainable and economical

       25          viable animal feeding operation, that we're all

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        1          going to have to work together in this area.

        2                      And what we're trying to do here

        3          today is twofold, really.  One is to help further

        4          inform those of you who have shown interest in

        5          this area, and certainly you have by coming down

        6          here today, a little bit more about what we're

        7          arguing and why we have done what -- what we have

        8          in this strategy, what it contains, but more

        9          importantly to hear from you, as I said earlier,

       10          what your interests are, what your concerns are,

       11          what issues you may see and what problems you may

       12          see, so that we can get back together and take

       13          advantage of those in producing a more -- a

       14          better document in the final analysis.

       15                      From the standpoint of the

       16          Environmental Protection Agency, I would just

       17          like to say that we're delighted to be a partner

       18          with the Department of Agriculture in this

       19          activity.

       20                      The NRCS brings to the table some

       21          sixty years or more of experience in working with

       22          the producer community on a variety of voluntary

       23          programs such as this in environmental and other

       24          fields, and just has a series of networks and

       25          mechanisms and tools which really complement what

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        1          we have.

        2                      Our expertise is obviously in the

        3          environmental field, and our tools are for the

        4          most part regulatory, so I think we complement

        5          each other in this case.  We think that the

        6          linchpin of this whole strategy is probably the

        7          development of the Comprehensive Nutrient

        8          Management Plans and implementation of those

        9          management plans.

       10                      Our goal is that by 2008, that we

       11          would like to see every animal feeding operation

       12          have a nutrient -- Comprehensive Nutrient

       13          Management Plan, and we think that will largely

       14          resolve any of the problems that may exist.

       15                      All of this is, of course, going to

       16          take resources.  For our part, we're working hard

       17          to obtain the necessary resources, and we will

       18          hear some of that a little bit later.

       19                      And we know that it's going to

       20          require resources in the private sector, as well,

       21          but we think that the results will be of

       22          tremendous value to human health and the

       23          environment.

       24                      In sum, just let me say that this is

       25          a Draft Strategy, something that the two agencies

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        1          have put together.  And we're making these rounds

        2          and obtaining these comments, getting written

        3          comments, which incidentally are due on the 19th

        4          of January for anyone choosing to make those.

        5                      And we will then put together a work

        6          group to finalize this document and then move on

        7          from there.

        8                      It is not -- it does not implement

        9          any new regulations or regulatory programs or

       10          anything like that.  I like to think of this as

       11          sort of a road map from where the two agencies

       12          are heading as we try to deal with this issue.

       13                      With that, I would like to introduce

       14          my co-chair, if you will, of this session, Glenda

       15          Humiston, who is Deputy Under Secretary for

       16          Natural Resources and Environment at USDA.

       17                      Glenda?

       18                      MS. HUMISTON:  Thank you, Fred.

       19                      It's really a pleasure to be here.  I

       20          have had this position as Deputy Under Secretary

       21          at the U.S. Department of Agriculture for just

       22          not quite five months now.

       23                      The very first task handed to me was

       24          putting together this Draft Strategy.

       25                      Some of you who may have been at

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        1          meetings a little over a year ago, when the first

        2          draft of the Clean Water Action Plan came out.

        3          Might remember that my boss and Fred's boss were

        4          joking on the difficulty of trying to get EPA and

        5          USDA cultures together.

        6                      And as I remember, what they said was

        7          all of EPAs programs are 319 and 205 and 208

        8          where at USDA we have EQP and WRP and CRP and ACP

        9          and all these other programs.  And what it looked

       10          like is EPA didn't know how to spell and USDA

       11          didn't know how to add.

       12                      And trying to put that Draft Strategy

       13          together, sometimes it felt like that.

       14                      Well, I have to tell you working on

       15          the Animal Feeding Operation Strategy, we moved

       16          right into long division and really serious

       17          technicalities of grammar, as it were.

       18                      I think it's a good strategy that we

       19          have laid out for y'all to respond to.

       20                      All I would say in my comments to

       21          start this off before we turn it over to the

       22          staff, who are going to do a fantastic job of

       23          laying out the basics of it for you, is I would

       24          like to emphasize three things in particular.

       25                      As Fred mentioned, this is not a new

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        1          rule.  We have actually had some confusion in

        2          previous sessions with people thinking this is a

        3          rewrite of the Clean Water Act itself, and it's

        4          actually not.  What this strategy is built upon

        5          is existing authorities, existing regulations of

        6          law and existing programs.

        7                      Now, as Fred also alluded to, as far

        8          as the program delivery goes, all of us are

        9          fighting some budget situations, and in

       10          particular some serious budget cuts for FY 99,

       11          and as far as the regulatory authorities go, I

       12          think it's fair to say that the Clean Water Act,

       13          as many of our senators have said, is going to be

       14          reopened in the 106th Congress, and who knows

       15          where that is going to go.

       16                      But with this strategy you are

       17          looking at existing law.  And what we have tried

       18          to do is put that regulatory existing law into a

       19          complementary program with voluntary technical

       20          assistance programs that USDA offers.  And we

       21          have also tried to clearly maintain what the

       22          Secretary and Administrator Browner have called

       23          fire walls between the two.

       24                      In other words, protecting the

       25          confidentiality of proprietary information, that

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        1          say a private landowner might provide putting

        2          together a conservation plan.

        3                      Now, when the conservation plan, when

        4          that landowner turns that conservation plan over

        5          to the EPA or state regulatory agency to use in a

        6          permitting situation, that's up to them.  But the

        7          background info, which sometimes is financial --

        8          and one thing I like to remind folks who have

        9          been a little bit unhappy over that

       10          confidentiality issue is that I don't think many

       11          of us would like our IRS text returns turned over

       12          to the general public either.  So there's that

       13          type of specific info.

       14                      The other thing I would remind you,

       15          and this is actually an apology, some people have

       16          been upset that the verbal comments you make

       17          today are not part of the official Federal

       18          Register.  Part of the reason for that is that we

       19          were only able to select twelve cities and

       20          it's -- it gives an unfair advantage to citizens

       21          around those cities versus citizens who aren't

       22          able to get to those cities for verbal comment.

       23                      That's why we're insisting, if you

       24          want to be part of the official Federal Register,

       25          you have to send it in writing.  But we do have

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        1          addressed envelopes to make it easy.  But let me

        2          assure you, we do have a very wonderful

        3          stenographer over here or whatever -- I probably

        4          screwed the term up -- court reporter, thank you,

        5          who is getting this down verbatim.

        6                      So your verbal comments will be

        7          available to us verbatim as our staff works on

        8          this in January, if you aren't able to get

        9          written comments in.  But please, I would urge

       10          you to do that, which kind of segues into my last

       11          point is that we truly are here to listen.

       12                      This is the first attempt to put a

       13          strategy like this together.  And even though I

       14          think we did an awfully good job, we had a lot of

       15          staff working on this.

       16                      We went through it with a fine tooth

       17          comb trying to make it a good comprehensive

       18          balanced strategy.  I'm quite sure we missed some

       19          stuff.  And also, I'm quite sure there are some

       20          pretty fantastic ideas -- that's always been my

       21          experience -- out in the field, that frankly we

       22          just didn't know about.  Examples of how to make

       23          something work or examples of a new way to do

       24          something, new technologies, perhaps, to help

       25          solve problems.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      So I would urge you today that if you

        2          are here to tell us to just throw this thing

        3          away, I urge you to rather come up and tell us

        4          how we can make this thing really good, this

        5          strategy, because it is going to be worked on, it

        6          is going to be rewritten and we're going to move

        7          forward with it.

        8                      So, with that, I am going to turn it

        9          over to our moderator, Dr. Billy Hicks, from the

       10          University of Tennessee, and he will be the boss

       11          for the rest of this session.

       12                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.

       13                      The first thing I would like to do is

       14          make the announcement for the hearing impaired.

       15                      Would the signer come forward?

       16                      We have a signer here for the hearing

       17          impaired and we would like to know that now, so

       18          that if the person is not needed, then we can

       19          discontinue that phase of the operation.

       20                      Is there a need for the hearing

       21          impaired?

       22                      Okay.  Thank you very much.

       23                      I'll let you folks go ahead.  Come

       24          forward and pick up with the overview then of the

       25          Clean Water Action Plan.

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        1                      MS. FARZAAD: They're all doing this

        2          because none of them can say my name.

        3                      I just thought I would fill you in on

        4          this little secret.  My name is Marjan Farzaad.

        5          I work down in Atlanta in EPA Region 4 and I'm

        6          the Clean Water Action Plan coordinator.

        7                      About nine o'clock Monday morning, I

        8          was told I would be here this afternoon, much to

        9          my surprise and joy.  And so what I'm going to

       10          try to do is tell you all 111 action items in the

       11          Clean Water Action Plan in less than ten minutes.

       12          Absolutely not.

       13                      But I -- what I will try and do is

       14          give you some idea of what it is, why it came to

       15          be, how the Animal Feeding Strategy is decided,

       16          if that's the right word for it.

       17                      Can y'all see this?  If I am in

       18          y'alls way, just holler at me.

       19                      There are several things that

       20          happened and led us to the point of this plan

       21          being developed and getting all these federal

       22          agencies together to talk to one another.

       23                      In order to appreciate it, we find

       24          you have to look back at the history of how did

       25          we do on our waters over the years to get to this

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        1          point.

        2                      You think back to the seventies and

        3          the environmental movement and clean water

        4          becoming a goal nationally and people becoming

        5          aware of it, most of which we were concerned with

        6          was point source discharges.

        7                      What that means is coming out of a

        8          pipe, coming out of a ditch.  It's coming

        9          generally out of a factory or a sewage treatment

       10          plant or something to that effect.

       11                      And it had certain advantages.  You

       12          could come up with a technology-based control,

       13          namely a system of treatment or machine or

       14          something that took the nasties out.  But you

       15          knew where the nasties were coming out and how

       16          many of them there were.  There were

       17          approximately sixteen thousand of them

       18          nationwide.

       19                      And then you would be done.

       20                      Well great, the world changed in the

       21          meantime.  So instead of sixteen thousand pipes

       22          and sixteen thousand factories, or whatever they

       23          were at the beginning, about five or ten years

       24          ago when we started reassessing our nation's

       25          water, we said,  well, gee, you know, we did

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        1          pretty darn good.  We've got quite a bit of

        2          reduction and the problems that we had in the

        3          environment, most of our water is a whole lot

        4          better off than they used to be.

        5                      Then why is it that forty percent of

        6          them are still not meeting the goals that we set

        7          up for our nation's waters?

        8                      Well, see, you look at the landscape,

        9          you have got the answer.  I'm sure every one of

       10          you lives in a community where you look at urban

       11          sprawl taking over, where there's a lot of

       12          conversion to a lot of different types of

       13          activity going on from farming to partial

       14          cultures -- either one to development and

       15          industry coming in where it didn't use to be.

       16                      And we got into this business of what

       17          they called polluted runoff or non point source

       18          pollution coming off of every piece of land in

       19          this country.

       20                      I don't care how good government is.

       21          I don't care how much our hearts are in it.  We

       22          can't be on every piece of property in this

       23          country.  So we can't fix it alone.

       24                      So inherent in the idea of the Clean

       25          Water Action Plan was the thought process that it

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        1          is going to take all of us to make it work -- not

        2          just government, not just regulatory agencies,

        3          not just even just incentive-based programs, but

        4          all of us in one way, shape or form.

        5                      Now, in order for that to happen a

        6          lot of other things have to happen.

        7                      Let me just give you some background

        8          in the action plan itself.  As we mentioned

        9          earlier it was introduced in February by

       10          Vice-President Gore.  It targets the programs of

       11          nine different federal agencies.  I brought a

       12          bunch of copies of it in the back, but y'all have

       13          to sign an affidavit that you're going to read it

       14          before you take one, because I didn't bring

       15          enough for everybody.  They didn't tell me who

       16          they invited to the party.

       17                      So either share, be good citizens and

       18          share or really read it, if you take one, because

       19          it is relatively pretty voluminous.  It does have

       20          some good things to say about a whole lot of

       21          things, so it's not that bad of a reading.  So if

       22          you take one,please do try to read it.

       23                      We'll talk about how Animal Feeding

       24          Strategies fit into all this in a second.

       25                      So we talked about the fact that

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        1          there are still some problems out there we need

        2          to address, and the nature of them is very

        3          different than what it used to be.

        4                      The concept of cleaning your own

        5          house first, federal government, then becomes the

        6          second guiding principle of all this.  The non

        7          federal agencies I mentioned, each and every one

        8          of them, have programs that somehow feed into the

        9          concept of clean water, better environment,

       10          healthy places for people to live, clean drinking

       11          water.

       12                      How to tap for -- all these things

       13          mesh together.  And historically we have all been

       14          doing them separately.  We haven't been

       15          necessarily discussing each other's priorities

       16          with one another and NRCS might have been doing

       17          something here.  EPA is doing something right

       18          next door we didn't even know they were there,

       19          vice versa, and on and on we go.

       20                      So, the first thing it lays out in

       21          front of us is a bunch of different things that

       22          say y'all need to work together.

       23                      No new programs, as we mentioned

       24          earlier, but what you're doing today we need to

       25          do better together.

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        1                      Let's get rid of the duplication and

        2          let's come up with some better ideas and pool our

        3          resources.  Let's find new ways and better ways

        4          to do the same thing that we have been doing with

        5          the existing authorities that we have.  Okay.

        6                      Also inherent in that concept is the

        7          federal government manages a whole bunch of land.

        8          And so if it's important for y'all to do

        9          something right on your land, it sure as heck is

       10          important for the federal government to do the

       11          same thing.

       12                      So agencies such a the U.S. Forest

       13          Service, U.S. Department of Interior -- those are

       14          the two biggies with the Bureau of Land

       15          Management, who are charged with doing certain

       16          things better and given certain goals to carry

       17          out on the federal lands that they have

       18          responsibility for.

       19                      So this concept of integration,

       20          you're going to hear this over and over again as

       21          I go through, is very key to making this plan

       22          work.  We need stakeholder ownership.  What is

       23          that and how do we get it?

       24                      Well, stakeholders are you, you're

       25          here because you have shown an interest, and it's

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        1          me and it's your neighbor next door and it's

        2          whoever else is around.

        3                      But how can stakeholders become

        4          owners of the concepts that are going to work on

        5          the ground?

        6                      Well, this strategy that you're going

        7          to be hearing about tonight is probably one of

        8          the better examples we have of this.

        9                      Once again, it is the philosophy that

       10          works.  If the nitty gritty of stuff y'all don't

       11          like, y'all think that there is something wrong

       12          with it scientifically, economically, we have got

       13          to hear from you.

       14                      You have heard that before and you

       15          will hear it again.

       16                      In order for the citizen to do the

       17          right thing, and we're operating under the

       18          premise that most people, given the facts, will

       19          do the right thing, if it's feasible for them,

       20          you have to know what the right thing is.  You

       21          have to have the information.

       22                      So in the Clean Water Action Plan,

       23          one of the biggest chunks of things that has to

       24          happen is you agencies go out there and get the

       25          information to the people.  There are several

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        1          moves afoot to use -- for instance, the world

        2          wide web is a very big tool, to present massive

        3          volumes of information that have been sitting in

        4          different government agencies for a long time,

        5          available to anybody who can go to a public

        6          library and access the systems for free.

        7                      It will be there.  So you want to

        8          learn about your watershed, which is the area

        9          that drains that little water body that we all

       10          live close to, whatever that might be for your

       11          neck of the woods, or you want to learn about it

       12          in a larger scale all the way up to the

       13          Mississippi River watershed, which drains half of

       14          this North American continent, you can go in

       15          there and do that -- find information about who

       16          is involved, what's happening and what kind of

       17          information is being gathered, what does it mean,

       18          what industry is doing good, what industry is

       19          doing bad, and why.

       20                      And finally what can you do to become

       21          involved, help, or, you know, if it's just to

       22          satisfy your curiosity, that's okay, too.

       23                      What we're hoping though is that once

       24          the citizens know the information, they will

       25          become part of mechanism that develops the

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        1          solution.

        2                      We don't want to develop all the

        3          solutions.  We can give you technical

        4          information, but we don't want to develop

        5          necessarily all the answers out there on a

        6          watershed basis around the country because then

        7          it's our answers and not your answers.

        8                      And guess what, you're going to be a

        9          lot happier doing things you think are right and

       10          you have put blood, sweat and tears into than

       11          something that I came up with sitting in a

       12          cubicle on the 15th floor in Atlanta.

       13                      Makes sense, right?  Okay.

       14                      Now, in order for you to come to

       15          those correct decisions and develop those

       16          solutions, we do recognize, and you have heard

       17          this before also tonight, that you do need

       18          certain responses -- access to good technical

       19          information and advice and the financial

       20          resources to then take those solutions and

       21          implement them on the ground.

       22                      We're not saying we have enough of

       23          those, but we're saying we'll work with you to

       24          find them.  It's the best we can do given the

       25          budgets and what's going on.  But even so, doing

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        1          something is going to be better than doing

        2          nothing.

        3                      The 111 action items -- there are a

        4          couple of them that I want to point out, which

        5          once again demonstrate how they fit into the

        6          concept you'll talk about tonight.  It was

        7          mentioned earlier there are 111 action items.

        8                      One of the big ones was a charge that

        9          was given to the states and the tribes of this

       10          country to go out there and once and for all --

       11          it's an ongoing process -- but once and for all

       12          to start -- to start looking at the watersheds

       13          within the boundaries of their states and tribal

       14          nations and make an assessment as to the

       15          condition of these watersheds.

       16                      If you are familiar with the United

       17          States Geological Survey Hydrologic Units,

       18          because they were looking at the whole United

       19          States, and it directed them to look at these at

       20          the eight digit mapping unit, which is a very big

       21          area.  It doesn't necessarily matter what it

       22          means right now, but it's a big chunk of land.

       23                      Once those watersheds were assessed,

       24          the states and tribes were directed to work with

       25          the stakeholders in those watersheds, and we'll

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        1          talk about it in a little more detail in just a

        2          second, to develop something called Watershed

        3          Restoration Action Strategies.  Just keep these

        4          tucked in the back of your mind for a second.

        5                      And the AFO strategy will be in a lot

        6          of those watersheds, a big chunk of those

        7          Restoration Action Strategies.  Hold on to all of

        8          that for a second.

        9                      Okay.  How are these assessments

       10          done, what did they say and how are they going to

       11          work?

       12                      They said go out there and tell me on

       13          this eight digit mapping unit whether the

       14          watersheds in your state or tribe are a Category

       15          1, namely they are impaired.  Impaired doesn't

       16          mean if you touch them, you're going to drop dead

       17          because there is nasty stuff in the water, it

       18          means they're not meeting certain clean water or

       19          national resource goals.

       20                      What does that mean?

       21                      Well, it means there could be one

       22          criterion that is causing it not to meet

       23          standards, namely for instance, sediment.

       24                      It might be oversedimenting.  It's

       25          getting too much runoff from the land around it.

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        1          It might have a pathogen problem, critters

        2          floating around the water that we don't want in

        3          the water, which ties in very big with the AFOs,

        4          if you get into nutrient richness and fecal

        5          coliform bacteria.  You might have heard of that.

        6                      It's all over the place.  We just

        7          don't necessarily want it in our drinking water.

        8          It doesn't do very good things inside our

        9          systems.  These aren't creatures from Mars, but

       10          they are things that affect each and every one of

       11          us.

       12                      So Category 1, impaired watersheds.

       13                      Category 2, they meet standards.

       14          They might be threatened and maybe urban sprawl

       15          is coming.  They may not been in the best of

       16          shape, but for now they meet standards.

       17                      Category 3 are watersheds that have

       18          very large chunks of federal land on them.  It is

       19          supposed to tie in with some of the other action

       20          items under the Clean Water Action Plan, because

       21          like I said, there are nine federal agencies

       22          involved.

       23                      Category 4 is not enough information.

       24          And many of our great states are in a position,

       25          because of dirth of resources to where they

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        1          haven't got around to assessing each and every

        2          watershed.  They have only managed to go around

        3          to places where there's been a need or where they

        4          have traditionally done monitoring.  So that

        5          identifies that there are places that we just

        6          need information on.

        7                      We just don't know enough yet.

        8          Doesn't mean it's good, doesn't mean it's bad.

        9          It means we have got to find out.

       10                      Then they were charged, of those

       11          Category 1 watersheds, to select three to five

       12          that we can start working on now.

       13                      In order to support that, EPA under

       14          their 319, here's one of those numbers.  It's the

       15          Non Point Source Grant Program.  It's a non

       16          source program, but under the large grants

       17          program was given a chunk of money to put into

       18          those priority watersheds selected by the state

       19          or tribe, to work on the Watershed Restoration

       20          Action Strategies, that are developed by

       21          stakeholders.

       22                      See how all of this reinforces

       23          itself?  It's got to come from bottom up.  Yes,

       24          we'll do the assessment.  We'll give you the

       25          data.  But the how to fix it and what your goals

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        1          are on the ground level best comes from you.

        2                      Okay.  Now, then there's roles for

        3          local, state and federal governments in that.

        4          There are things that each of us do better, given

        5          the scale of operation that we're in.

        6                      Local government can deal with

        7          issues, for instance, through zoning.  Federal

        8          government doesn't do zoning.  You don't want us

        9          to do zoning, and that's cool.  We don't want to

       10          do it.  State governments, they are going to be a

       11          whole lot closer to the issue of economic growth,

       12          sustainability resource management of that state

       13          than either, once again, the locals or the

       14          federal.

       15                      And last but not least, the Feds

       16          bring to the table programs that, through

       17          matching by the state and local programs, can

       18          really give leverage to make those states and

       19          local programs a whole lot more than that what

       20          they are in terms of resources to start with.

       21                      So each and every one of us has a

       22          role in this.  The stakeholder develops it.  The

       23          rest of us will help you get it on the ground.

       24          Okay.

       25                      You start looking at strategies these

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        1          folks are going to lay out for you, if you

        2          haven't spend time reading it already, which I

        3          assume the reason you're here is you already know

        4          a little bit about it, if not all of it, and you

        5          see certain parallels between the AFO strategy

        6          and the Clean Water Action Plan right off.

        7                      It involved integrated planning.

        8          We're not going to do it alone.  We're going to

        9          do it with you, and we're going to do it between

       10          agencies that are involved and it's going to go a

       11          whole lot further than just EPA and NRCS.  It's

       12          our strategies, granted, that were draft

       13          strategies we're putting forth to you but in

       14          order for it to be a reality on the ground,

       15          there's going to be a whole bunch of other people

       16          that need to become involved.

       17                      And maybe you might provide the

       18          mechanisms for their involvement.  Maybe you are

       19          representatives of them.

       20                      That includes environmental groups.

       21          That include the Soil and Water Conservation

       22          districts and a whole bunch of other folks.

       23          Okay.

       24                      It needs to be stakeholder driven.

       25          If you don't have buy-ins to whatever specific

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        1          management strategy you want to put on the ground

        2          on your particular piece of ground in your

        3          watersheds, it's not going to work.

        4                      The specifics can't be the same from

        5          place to place.  They cannot come up with a

        6          strategy or a plan that prescribed to you what to

        7          do on this farm because what to do on this there

        8          farm isn't the same thing to do on the next farm

        9          in another watershed.

       10                      Your practices might be different.

       11          Your soil type might be different.  The watershed

       12          itself, the hydrological characters might be

       13          different, so it has to be site specific and who

       14          knows your land better than you?  Okay.

       15                      There will be incentives provided

       16          through the voluntary programs to help make this

       17          implemental because we do realize it does require

       18          resources.

       19                      There's a regulatory side to this

       20          equation.  My analogy for it -- how am I doing on

       21          time -- is that you're the mayor of a small city,

       22          everybody in the city is a vegetarian and they

       23          are all overweight.  And you need to come up with

       24          somewhere for the waste water to go.  That's my

       25          analogy for a confined, you know, the larger

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        1          animal operations.

        2                      So just as we regulate our own waste

        3          water treatment plants certain amounts of

        4          regulation are necessary for the very large

        5          operations for them to work.

        6                      Folks ask us to go into detail and we

        7          did cover it.  We do need industry leadership for

        8          this to work.  I can't stress that enough.  And

        9          let me admit to the fact that we have got a long

       10          way to go and there's a lot of things we don't

       11          know.

       12                      You all know what happens if you have

       13          got a thousand AFOs in the same small watershed

       14          and half of them are doing right and half of them

       15          aren't doing right.  There is going to be some

       16          cumulative impact.  We'll need to work through

       17          those together.  And stakeholders in that

       18          watershed need to be involved in what ends up

       19          being decided, maybe through the Watershed

       20          Restoration Action Strategy.

       21                      We do realize that our own roles

       22          aren't necessarily aren't figured out all the way

       23          down to the details.  You've got to save some

       24          delegated programs and save some non delegated

       25          programs.  Where do you do assistance and where

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        1          you do enforcement?  Who is the good guy and who

        2          is the bad guy?  We don't necessarily know all

        3          this stuff yet.  We're just trying to be honest

        4          with you and realize that there is a lot we need

        5          to work through as well.

        6                      The state of science is always

        7          changing.  The plans need to be flexible to

        8          accommodate that.  And the state of your

        9          watersheds are always changing.  Nature is

       10          dynamic.  It's not a static force.

       11                      So, with that, I'll let the folks

       12          fill you in on the details.  Thank you for your

       13          time.  Appreciate it.

       14                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Marjan.

       15                      I could have pronounced your name, I

       16          just didn't know I was supposed to.

       17                      Now, we'll have an overview of the

       18          USDA/EPA Draft Animal Feeding Operation Strategy.

       19          Joe DelVecchio and Will Hall, the USDA/EPA

       20          perspective.

       21                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Welcome, everybody.

       22                      My name is Joe DelVecchio and I am

       23          from the USDA, and we're going to start out today

       24          hopefully with a computer that works here.

       25                      I tried it, but it didn't work.  The

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        1          first technical glitch.  Well, let me just --

        2          while we're getting this computer operated, this

        3          is Will Hall from EPA.  And as we get this fixed,

        4          let me just tell you that what we're going to do

        5          for you today is a tag team approach.

        6                      We're going to give you an overview

        7          of the Unified Draft Strategy.

        8                      We're going to do it in a tag team

        9          format by using a presentation on the computer,

       10          hopefully, and if not, I will have to dig out the

       11          old technology and get some overhead up.  Here we

       12          go.

       13                      I have already mentioned that this is

       14          a Draft Strategy.  It's a draft in the fact that

       15          we're here to listen to you for public comments,

       16          and comments are going to be submitted through an

       17          official Federal Register process, and we're

       18          going to get back together to develop a final

       19          strategy after we go through this public

       20          commentary.

       21                      And it is a strategy.  You have

       22          already heard that it is not a new regulation.

       23          It's not new legislation.  And we just want to

       24          make it clear that it is a strategy.

       25                      Now, you have heard already that

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        1          there's been tremendous progress in cleaning up

        2          the waters of the U.S. over the past twenty-five

        3          years.  And, in fact, a lot of that was based on

        4          the fact that we cleaned up those points sources

        5          of pollution.

        6                      But also, let's not forget about the

        7          years that conservation efforts have been in

        8          place, too, and the fact that they have had a big

        9          impact on cleaning up the waters of the U.S. for

       10          probably more than the past twenty five years.

       11          So I just want to give credit where credit is

       12          due.

       13                      In the development of the strategy,

       14          what we started out with were some general

       15          guiding principles as to what we should be doing.

       16          There are actually eight guiding principles in

       17          the strategy, and we have highlighted five here

       18          on the overhead, and basically we want to

       19          indicate what the five most important are.

       20                      And basically what we want to do here

       21          is to make sure we minimize the amount of

       22          pollution from animal feeding operations and

       23          minimize the water quality and public health

       24          impacts.  We also want to make sure that we're

       25          spending our efforts on those animal feeding

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          operations that create the greatest risks.  But

        2          at the same time, we want to make sure that we

        3          promote and sustain a long term economic

        4          viability of the livestock industry.  It does

        5          account for over fifty percent of entire

        6          agricultural economy.  So it is an important part

        7          of the economy.  And having clean water and

        8          having a strong livestock industry certainly are

        9          not mutually exclusive.

       10                      The other thing that we wanted to do

       11          was we wanted to make sure that all animal

       12          feeding operations owners and operators knew what

       13          the goals of the strategy was, and also,we wanted

       14          to give them a way of meeting that goal.  So we

       15          have developed a national goal and a national

       16          performance expectation.

       17                      And finally what we wanted to do was

       18          to make sure the strategy had actions and had

       19          ways for people to coordinate at the national

       20          level, not only USDA and EPA, but all agencies

       21          involved in clean water.

       22                      Also, we want to make sure

       23          coordination takes place at the state level, the

       24          tribal level and the local level.  The

       25          coordination is -- it can't be stressed enough.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      So what is an animal feeding

        2          operation?  Actually there is a regulatory

        3          definition, but let me just say that this is

        4          not -- this is a subsegment of the entire

        5          livestock industry.

        6                      Before you think -- I will tell you

        7          what the difference is.  The livestock industry

        8          also includes animals that are grazing on range

        9          land or that are out on pasture where they are

       10          actually foraging for their own food.

       11                      Those are not animal feeding

       12          operations.  For an operation to be an animal

       13          feeding operation, it needs to have the animals

       14          confined, either in a feedlot or a building, and

       15          they need to be fed there.  Food needs to be

       16          brought to them.

       17                      Now, in 1992 the Ag census said there

       18          were about 450,000 of these animal feeding

       19          operations around the nation.

       20                      But 1992 was six years ago, and in

       21          checking with the industry now we find that

       22          there's probably fewer than 450,000, but we also

       23          find that the ones that are there are probably

       24          larger.  So there has been quite a bit of

       25          consolidation in the industry, so there's

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        1          transfer consolidation.  That's one of the

        2          reasons that we're here.

        3                      MR. HALL:  Well, there are a number

        4          of potential issues, environmental and public

        5          health issues that you may have heard about in

        6          connection with annual feeding operations.  There

        7          are air quality issues, such as odor or

        8          greenhouse gasses.  There is that.  Other public

        9          health issues such as food safety, you may have

       10          heard about as well.

       11                      But this strategy, this Draft

       12          Strategy that USDA and the EPA has put together

       13          is focused almost exclusively on water quality

       14          related issues, the things such as overenrichment

       15          of nutrients, pathogen type problems that might

       16          occur, drinking water supply contamination that

       17          might taking place.

       18                      And again, just let me emphasize that

       19          although there may be other issues that some of

       20          the activities and strategies may have a positive

       21          impact on, it's the water quality issues that

       22          we're primarily focused on here.

       23                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  I mentioned that our

       24          guiding principles that we had wanted to

       25          establish was a national goal and a national

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          performance expectation.  We're trying to

        2          effectuate a change here.  We want people willing

        3          to change, and so what we felt, as a national

        4          goal, the appropriate thing would be for people

        5          to take action, those people that are operating

        6          their own feeding operation take action to

        7          minimize the amount of pollutants that leave

        8          their operation.

        9                      So that's what we have established as

       10          our national goal.

       11                      We feel that a way to accomplish that

       12          goal, the expectation that we have to meet this,

       13          the performance expectation, would be the

       14          development and implementation of technically

       15          sound and economically viable Comprehensive

       16          Nutrient Management Plans.

       17                      That raises the issue as to just

       18          exactly what is a Comprehensive Nutrient

       19          Management Plan.  What we decided to do in a

       20          strategy is to tell people exactly what it was so

       21          there would be no doubt about it.

       22                      There is a process, a Comprehensive

       23          Nutrient Management Plan, that is done by and

       24          that process is site specific.  It is based on

       25          the fact that certain soil or all soils or most

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        1          soils are different from place to place.

        2          Certainty topography is different.  Climate is

        3          different.

        4                      But in the Comprehensive Nutrient

        5          Management Plan, we do want to take a look at

        6          certain components.  If they are applicable in a

        7          plan, then we want them to be included in the

        8          plan.  And what we want to do is look at

        9          nutrients as they go through the entire cycles

       10          with the animal feeding operation.

       11                      And before I go any further, I just

       12          want to also say that it was mentioned earlier

       13          that not only are nutrients causing a public

       14          health problem, but so are things like pathogens,

       15          specially in drinking water.  And we hope that

       16          these Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plans,

       17          even if we used the word nutrient, if they are

       18          developed properly, they will also address these

       19          pathogen issues.

       20                      So let me just run down through a

       21          list of components that are in Comprehensive

       22          Nutrient Management.

       23                      Again, we want to sort through the

       24          cycle so the first place the nutrients enter the

       25          cycle are as they are fed to the animal.  And so

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        1          feed management is our first component.

        2                      And what we're saying here is, if

        3          it's possible to adjust rations, to feed certain

        4          supplements or feed enzymes or feed low

        5          phosphorous feeds -- whatever.  What we're trying

        6          to do here is minimize the amount of nutrients

        7          that are excreted in the manure.

        8                      So if there's a possible way of doing

        9          that, then that should be included as a part of a

       10          component of the Comprehensive Nutrient

       11          Management Plan.

       12                      The next thing we have to deal with

       13          is the other end of the animal, and that's the

       14          manure produced.  And we want to make sure it's

       15          handled properly, and if it's stored that it's

       16          stored properly.  And when we say properly, we

       17          mean such that it does not degrade the

       18          environment, that pollutants are not lost to the

       19          environment.

       20                      So manure handling and storage is the

       21          next component.

       22                      The third component would be the

       23          application of manure to land and making sure

       24          that's done in an appropriate way in accordance

       25          with agronomic rates and doing nutrient budgets

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          and balances so it's used properly, because it

        2          does have an important source of not only

        3          nutrients but organic matter.

        4                      But we also want to make sure of the

        5          next component, which is land management,  is

        6          done properly because we don't want to do

        7          nutrient management properly and then have the

        8          land erode and have the excess runoff on the

        9          land, so we want to make sure we look at erosion

       10          control packages and water management practices

       11          so that the land is managed properly.

       12                      And also we want to make sure that if

       13          there are water sources near the land where

       14          manure is applied, that they are adequately

       15          buffered through the use of either forest buffers

       16          or some other type of buffer strips.

       17                      The next component of the nutrient

       18          management plan we call called record keeping.

       19          We want to make sure that as manures are produced

       20          that we know the volumes that are produced, and

       21          we also know where they are ultimately applied to

       22          the land.  An old saying in our agency used to be

       23          if it's not documented, it's not done.

       24                      And also I was thinking over the

       25          weekend that -- there is an analogy applied to

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        1          your taxes here.  If you don't keep track of what

        2          you do during the year, then you don't know how

        3          you need to get involved in next year's.  So you

        4          need to keep track and keep records of what is

        5          happening with your manure so that everybody, or

        6          so that you know how to implement your plan for

        7          next year.

        8                      And then what we have found in the

        9          development of the Comprehensive Nutrient

       10          Management Plan, or what may be found, is that

       11          there are going to be times when there are just

       12          more nutrients produced at the animal feeding

       13          operation than there is land available to

       14          appropriately and properly apply it.

       15                      So what we said as part of the

       16          Comprehensive Management Plan is that you need to

       17          look at other utilization options for manure.

       18                      And what can they be?

       19                      We have listed a couple of them in

       20          this strategy, but here's an opportunity for --

       21          to get some of those ideas that Glenda mentioned,

       22          some of those great ideas that we know must be

       23          out there, some of those new innovative

       24          techniques.

       25                      What we've mentioned in the strategy

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        1          are things like composting manure, treating the

        2          manure, brokering the manure to areas that don't

        3          raise animals, that just raise crops so that they

        4          can make use of the nutrients.

        5                      Also the conversion of manures to

        6          energy.  So those are some of the ideas that we

        7          have tried in this strategy, but certainly there

        8          must be more and we're certainly looking forward

        9          to your input on that.

       10                      MR. HALL:  All right.

       11                      As was mentioned a little earlier

       12          about EPA and USDA sitting down to draft this

       13          strategy, I believe that there are appropriate

       14          roles for both regulatory and voluntary

       15          approaches.

       16                      With that in mind, we wanted to spend

       17          some time in the strategy describing the

       18          relationship between the voluntary and regulatory

       19          programs as they related to animal feeding

       20          operations.

       21                      We wanted to make sure that there was

       22          a clear road map on how far each of these

       23          approaches would be used and that they were

       24          coordinated in complementary roles for each

       25          approach.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      Now, overall we feel that the vast

        2          majority of animal feeding operations,

        3          approximately ninety-five percent of the 450,000

        4          that Joe mentioned, would be addressed with some

        5          kind of voluntary approach.  People would

        6          participate in existing programs or new programs

        7          or new ideas that are developed completely

        8          because they think it's a good idea and out of a

        9          traditional stewardship ethic that we know many

       10          producers have.

       11                      There are, however, we believe,

       12          approximately five percent of the Entire AFO

       13          universe that do merit a regulatory kind of

       14          approach.  And we identified the strategy, and

       15          I'll describe that in a few minutes.  Some

       16          priority areas for focusing the attention of

       17          regulatory programs.

       18                      Now, common to both the voluntary and

       19          the regulatory approach are these CNMPs, these

       20          Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plans that Joe

       21          mentioned a few minutes ago.

       22                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Okay.

       23                      I'm just going to spend a few minutes

       24          discussing what the voluntary approach is and

       25          what the voluntary approach is based on.

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        1                      Will just mentioned that essentially

        2          the voluntary program really is based on

        3          sustainability and a stewardship ethic that most

        4          farmers have in regard to the land that they

        5          operate on.

        6                      And really, that's the entire basis

        7          of all the voluntary programs.  One thing that we

        8          have found most recently since the 1992 Farm Bill

        9          passed was that no one knows their resource

       10          concerns and their issues in regard to national

       11          resource problems or water quality problems any

       12          better than the people at the local level.  No

       13          one knows your problems better than you know in

       14          your own community or at your own farm.

       15                      So when we found that locally led

       16          conservation is the key issue to a voluntary

       17          program.  People will have much more ownership of

       18          these programs if they have some impact as to

       19          whether these programs are delivered in their

       20          area, or whether they are a high priority area or

       21          whatever they be.

       22                      But if they have an opportunity to

       23          assess their resources and make some

       24          determinations as to what the priorities are to

       25          those resource concerns, then the ownership of

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        1          those programs are very important, and we find

        2          that the implementation is much more complete.

        3                      Another issue in regard to voluntary

        4          programs is the need for environmental education.

        5          And I'm sure Dr. Hicks would certainly emphasize

        6          this in regard to the extension system here in

        7          Tennessee or in any state that the need for

        8          environmental education is to let people know

        9          what they need to do to implement and develop

       10          Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plans.

       11                      Some people just need to have more

       12          education in regard to how to do things right.

       13          So we feel that certainly an essential and very

       14          important component of the voluntary programs is

       15          environmental education.

       16                      Now, of course, there is the need for

       17          some consulting or some technical assistance.

       18                      Again it's a little bit more than

       19          environmental education where people may go and

       20          learn about these things, but how to implement

       21          them is critically important.  And also programs

       22          that are available to help reduce the financial

       23          burden on an already stressed farm economy are

       24          critically important.

       25                      But one thing I need to emphasize

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        1          finally on this in regard to voluntary programs

        2          is that they are just that, voluntary.  And even

        3          though we're talking about the development and

        4          implementation of Comprehensive Nutrient

        5          Management Plans for all animal feeding

        6          operations, certainly all we can do in a strategy

        7          is strongly encourage that to happen.  We cannot

        8          require that to happen.

        9                      MR. HALL:  All right.

       10                      There is a situation the strategy

       11          devoted to describing the regulatory programs,

       12          the federal regulatory program, for what we call

       13          Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations, of CAFOs.

       14          CAFOs are included in the Federal Clean Air Act

       15          in the definition of point source.

       16                      Point sources are required to have

       17          permits under the National Pollutant Discharge

       18          Over the Nation System, which is what NPDES

       19          stands for.

       20                      Now the regulations we currently

       21          have, the current federal regulations were

       22          developed back in the mid 1970s and they include

       23          the implementing of the NPDES permitting

       24          regulations as well as the effluent guidelines,

       25          which are sort of minimum technology based

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        1          standards for concentrated animal feeding

        2          operations.

        3                      Forty-three states are authorized by

        4          the federal government to implement the NPDES

        5          program, so therefore those states would be

        6          issuing permits to the concentrated animal

        7          feeding operations.

        8                      In states that do have a coastal

        9          zone, there is also enforceable requirements of

       10          the Coastal Zone Act Reauthorization Amendment,

       11          so it's the CZAR program as it's sometimes known.

       12                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Okay.

       13                      The next section of the strategy

       14          deals with land application of manure.  Now, I've

       15          already mentioned this as a component of the

       16          Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan, but we

       17          felt it was important enough to mention again

       18          here in this relationship section between

       19          regulatory and voluntary programs.

       20                      What we found is that -- I mean, it

       21          gets right down to the basics.  There is a right

       22          way of doing things and a wrong way of doing

       23          things when it comes to land application of

       24          manure.

       25                      The proper way or the right way of

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          doing things is to have a plan developed to

        2          balance the nutrients, apply it in accordance

        3          with the agronomic rates so that the valuable

        4          nutrients and organic matter that are in the

        5          manure are utilized properly.

        6                      And in fact, if that happens, it has

        7          an impact on the regulatory issue.  People would,

        8          in fact, be qualified for the Agricultural Storm

        9          Water Exemption under the Clean Water Act, if

       10          it's done properly.

       11                      Now, there's also a wrong way of

       12          applying manure and that's applying it in excess

       13          of the planned amount and in excess of the

       14          agronomic rate.  This is probably -- this is more

       15          than likely going to cause some type of water

       16          problem or public health probable.  It's the

       17          wrong way of doing things, and some people can

       18          refer to it as disposing of manure on land.

       19                      MR. HALL:  All right.

       20                      I mentioned earlier that for the five

       21          percent of the AFO universe that we feel should

       22          be subject to the regulatory program, we have

       23          laid out in the strategy three priority areas for

       24          that program.

       25                      First of all, are those AFOs that

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          have significant manure production, generally

        2          those facilities with greater than a thousand

        3          animal units, where the animal unit is equal to

        4          one beef cow and translated, depending on the

        5          species that you're talking about the operation.

        6                      The second category are those

        7          facilities with unacceptable conditions that

        8          might lead to a direct discharge, for example,a

        9          man made conveyance of some sort or a situation

       10          where the animals have direct access to the water

       11          body.

       12                      And third, those facilities that are

       13          significant contributors to water quality

       14          impairment as determined through water quality

       15          monitoring.  We feel this could be determined

       16          either from in a watershed scale because of

       17          cumulative impacts from these facilities or it

       18          could be a case where you have an individual's

       19          facilities on an individual water body.

       20                      I should point out that these

       21          priorities do not involve revising the

       22          regulations, this would be purely implemented

       23          under existing regulations which were

       24          promulgated, as I mentioned, back in the mid

       25          1970s.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      A couple of notes about CNMPs as they

        2          relate to Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations

        3          or CAFOs.

        4                      First of all, we would expect that

        5          those CNMPs would be developed in accordance with

        6          guidance that EPA will provide.  One of our

        7          action items in the strategies is to develop

        8          guidance on CAFO CNMPs.

        9                      Second of all, we feel that we will

       10          adopt the NRCS practice standards as the

       11          appropriate practice standards for the EPA

       12          guidance and for the CNMPs developed for CAFOs.

       13          We want to ensure that the CNMPs are developed by

       14          a person who's certified to do a CNMP.  This

       15          would include a third party vendor such as the

       16          certified crop advisors, as well as federal or

       17          state officials, who develop CNMPs as part of

       18          their work.

       19                      Of course, it could include an AFO --

       20          excuse me, CAFO owner/operator themselves, if

       21          they were certified to do so.

       22                      But ultimately it is the

       23          responsibility of the CAFO owner/operator to seek

       24          out assistance, if needed, in developing the

       25          CNMP.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  While listening to

        2          what Will just said, some people may misinterpret

        3          the fact that NRCS is going to be providing

        4          regulatory standards.

        5                      In fact, this is what we call one of

        6          those fire wall issues that was mentioned early.

        7          Will said that the regulatory agency, or EPA,

        8          would adopt the NRCS standards as the appropriate

        9          standards.

       10                      And in fact, when that happens those

       11          standards become the regulatory authority

       12          standards.  So they will adopt them as their

       13          regulatory standards, even though they are

       14          adopting the NRCS's standards.

       15                      The other issue that I want to make

       16          sure is clear is that USDA still has the ability

       17          and will work with the regulated community in

       18          regard to animal feeding operations.  But when we

       19          do did that we will work directly with the

       20          producer the same way we have over the sixty-five

       21          years of our existence.

       22                      We will develop a plan in conjunction

       23          with the owner and operator.

       24                      As Will said on his slide here, it is

       25          the responsibility of the owner/operator to

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          deliver that plan to the regulatory authority.

        2          So there will be no direct linkage between USDA

        3          and the regulatory authority as far as the

        4          delivery of the plan.

        5                      Now, one other thing that we felt was

        6          important in regard to the Comprehensive Nutrient

        7          Management Plans was to try to impart them as

        8          strategies, some incentives for people to do

        9          these.

       10                      And we have devised two things here

       11          in the strategy.  One deals with the regulated

       12          animal feeding operation or the CAFO and one

       13          deals with the non regulated.  What we have

       14          devised as an incentive is that the smaller

       15          CAFOs, those that are less than a thousand animal

       16          units or those that are not in watersheds.

       17                      The impaired watersheds that as Will

       18          mentioned was one of the permitting priorities,

       19          if they can develop their Comprehensive Nutrient

       20          Plan and implemented it for the term of their

       21          NPDES permit, which is usually a five year term.

       22          If they meet all their permit requirements, they

       23          are going to be allowed to exit the regulatory

       24          program.

       25                      In implementing the Comprehensive

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Nutrient Management Plan, that's going to assure

        2          that they are nearly, or will certainly assure

        3          that they are going to meet their requirements,

        4          and again, they will be allowed to become a non

        5          regulated animal feeding operation.

        6                      Now, we certainly don't anticipate

        7          that someone will stop implementing the nutrient

        8          management plan at this point because if they

        9          have another discharge, they are going to go back

       10          to into the regulatory program.  So there is

       11          incentive to implement the Comprehensive Nutrient

       12          Management Plan to stay out of the regulatory

       13          program.

       14                      Now, for other animal feeding

       15          operations, what we feel is a good incentive, and

       16          we called it a good faith incentive, and we have

       17          borrowed that terminology from the Farm Bill, is

       18          that a smaller AFO takes the initiative, the

       19          voluntary initiative, to develop a Comprehensive

       20          Nutrient Management Plan and begin the

       21          implementation of that plan, and then for some

       22          reason, and I apologize to anyone whose name is

       23          Murphy in the room, but if Murphy's Law is in

       24          place anyplace it's always in place on a farm.

       25                      So, if for some reason something goes

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          wrong, manure spreader tips over or a wrong valve

        2          is turned someplace or there's actually a

        3          discharge.  If in good faith, they have been

        4          implementing their Comprehensive Nutrient

        5          Management Plan, they do, in fact, have this

        6          discharge that would normally cause them to be

        7          regulated, they are going to be given a one-time

        8          opportunity to fix the problem, to make sure that

        9          it never happens again, and stay on the voluntary

       10          side of the issue.

       11                      MR. HALL:  Now, having laid out the

       12          national performance expectation and national

       13          goals, as well as describe the relationship

       14          between the voluntary and regulatory approaches

       15          that we feel will be part of addressing AFO

       16          quality issues, we also wanted to outline several

       17          strategic issues that we feel are critical to

       18          achieving our national goal and performance

       19          expectation.

       20                      Now, in each case we have described

       21          what the issue is and the strategy.  We have

       22          listed what we expect to be the desired outcome

       23          from each of those -- in each of those issue

       24          areas.  And then finally a set of action items in

       25          each issue area.  Sometimes they are options,

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          sometimes they are things we feel a bit more

        2          definite about, to sort of further progress and

        3          in each issue area.  And what Joe and I want to

        4          do is walk through a brief description of each

        5          one of these.

        6                      The first strategic issue that you

        7          have heard today that CNMPs are a major feature

        8          of our Draft Strategy, and with that in mind, we

        9          want to make sure there is enough capacity out

       10          there to develop and implement these CNMPs.

       11                      First of all, we feel it's important

       12          to increase the number of certified specialists

       13          for both private and public sectors, who are

       14          certified to develop CNMPs.

       15                      Now, this is particularly true for

       16          the private sector because, let's face it,

       17          budgets never seem to get larger in our business

       18          and there is a lot of work out there to do.  And

       19          so we feel it's really, really important for the

       20          private sector to take a leadership role in

       21          developing CNMPs.

       22                      Second of all, we want to ensure that

       23          CNMPs are implemented into the guidance of

       24          qualified specialists, someone the owner/operator

       25          can go to get assistance as they implement their

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          CNMP.

        2                      Third, we want to make sure CNMPs are

        3          of consistent quality, so if you go to a place in

        4          Tennessee and go to a place out in South Dakota

        5          someplace, you can see that the level of quality

        6          is consistently high in CNMPs.

        7                      And then finally ultimately, we would

        8          like to see all AFOs owners and operators have a

        9          CNMP developed by a certified specialist.  Now,

       10          again, for ninety-five percent of the folks, this

       11          is something we would simply encourage.

       12                      As I mentioned in the regulatory

       13          program, we would expect that to be the case.

       14                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Our next strategic

       15          issue deals with accelerating voluntary programs.

       16          If the voluntary programs are going to deal with

       17          the vast majority of animal feeding operations,

       18          there needs to be ways to make sure that they are

       19          going to available to them.

       20                      One thing that we have established as

       21          a goal in this strategic issue is that there

       22          should be, in a ten year period, and we have used

       23          2008 here or maybe the final strategy will say

       24          2009, but in a ten year period that all animal

       25          feeding operations should have developed

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plans that

        2          begin their implementation.

        3                      Now, that's all, especially on the

        4          voluntary side of all animal feeding operations.

        5          We estimate there is probably 300,000 that either

        6          need updated nutrient management plans or need

        7          brand new nutrient management plans.  So that is

        8          a tremendous workload.

        9                      We want to make sure that as we

       10          develop these nutrient management plans and

       11          implement them that we're going to get the best

       12          and the most environmental benefits for the

       13          dollar that is expended, both in development and

       14          implementation of it.

       15                      We want to make sure that everyone in

       16          the country has access to these voluntary

       17          programs on a non discriminatory basis, so that

       18          there is equal opportunity for everybody to

       19          participate in the voluntary programs.

       20                      We also want to make sure that there

       21          are good technically sound national standards and

       22          national guidance for voluntary programs.  So we

       23          feel that we can develop good guidance based on

       24          science and provide that through the NRCS field

       25          level's technical guide and through other

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          agency's technical information, so that the best

        2          possible Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plans

        3          can be developed.

        4                      And finally, even though budgets are

        5          restricted in this year, and they seem to be

        6          going in that direction, we have to find some way

        7          of providing some additional financial

        8          alternatives and financial options.

        9                      This could be not only from the

       10          federal level, but many states now are getting

       11          involved in these issues, and they have bond acts

       12          and other types of levies that provide funding

       13          for these.  So we need to find some other

       14          financial alternatives, even trying to get

       15          industry involved in helping to finance some of

       16          these issues.

       17                      MR. HALL:  The next strategic issue

       18          you can think of as the road map for improving

       19          our regulatory program.  And think of it really

       20          in terms of sort of two phases, the first of

       21          which would begin in 1999.

       22                      Our goal in 1999 is to issue permits

       23          to the three priorities that I mentioned a little

       24          earlier, priorities for permitting.  And these

       25          could either be individual permits or general

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          permits.  They might even be watershed specific

        2          permits, if you wanted to focus on the issue

        3          germane to a particular watershed.

        4                      Now, EPA is planning now to issue

        5          CAFO permitting guides.  This would be revised

        6          guidance that would support this permitting

        7          effort, and we also want to work with states to

        8          develop state-specific permitting strategies for

        9          their CAFOs.

       10                      Now, in terms of the CNMPs, we -- our

       11          sense is this there would be an accelerated time

       12          frame for developing the CNMPs for permitting

       13          CAFOs, whereas the 2008 deadlines would apply to

       14          AFOs, as a universe, more broadly.

       15                      Now, if we begin our permitting in

       16          1999, the permits that Joe mentioned last for

       17          about five years, the second phase would begin

       18          sometime, let's say, about 2004/2005.

       19                      And at that time, a few things would

       20          have happened.  First of all, EPA has plans to

       21          review and revise as appropriate the regulations

       22          for concentrated feeding operations, both the

       23          implementing regulations, as well as the effluent

       24          guidelines.

       25                      So any new legislations that were in

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          place in 2004 and 2005 would be reflected in the

        2          new permits.

        3                      Second of all, as part of the theme

        4          of our action plan, EPA is going to be issuing

        5          revised guidance and developing nutrient water

        6          quality criteria.

        7                      The states will be in the process of

        8          developing water quality criteria based on that

        9          guidance.  And any new permits would be required

       10          to reflect those new criteria.

       11                      And third of all, as many of you

       12          probably know, there's a lot of work with Total

       13          Maximum Daily Loads going on, TMPLs, in states

       14          around the country.  And as those are developed,

       15          the new permits would need to address the TMPLs.

       16                      And I guess the final piece of the

       17          improved regulatory program is an improved

       18          compliance and enforcement program.

       19                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Our fourth strategic

       20          issue deals with the coordination of research of

       21          research, technology, transfer, technology

       22          innovation and compliance assistance.

       23                      And this deals with all the good work

       24          that is going on across the country, whether it

       25          be in extension research centers, in university

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          research centers, Ag research centers, wherever

        2          they may be, we need to make sure that's

        3          coordinated.

        4                      I mentioned coordination is one of

        5          our guiding principles and this is the strategic

        6          issue that really deals with -- especially the

        7          issues of research and technology and technology

        8          transfer.

        9                      So we want to make sure that we're

       10          coordinated, and we propose a few different

       11          options in the strategy.  Again, this is really

       12          one of those places where we're really looking

       13          for some real feedback.

       14                      And we know we want a coordinated

       15          research plan, and we know we want to coordinate

       16          a technology transfer plan, but we also want some

       17          kind of a -- we call it a virtual center -- in

       18          the strategy.

       19                      And what that really is a computer

       20          based website that people have access to and not

       21          just the researchers, but the regular people, the

       22          people that really want the information, whether

       23          it be in a local field office or a regional

       24          office or wherever that might be, we want to try

       25          to coordinate this on a national level.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. HALL:  As we mentioned a couple

        2          of times during this presentation, the private

        3          sector, in particular the animal agriculture

        4          industry, has a significant role to play in

        5          implementing the strategy and in particular

        6          developing Comprehensive Nutrient Management

        7          Plans and supporting their interpretation.

        8                      In addition, we also like to

        9          recognize that certain segments of the industry

       10          have already taken the lead.  The National Pork

       11          Producers Council had a dialogue and produced

       12          some recommendations.  We very much encourage

       13          that to take place.

       14                      There is also a poultry dialogue that

       15          is currently ongoing, and we encourage other

       16          parts of the animal agriculture industry to take

       17          these kinds of opportunities and have these kind

       18          of dialogues and discussions.

       19                      In addition to that, there are a

       20          number of other options and proposed ideas for

       21          how the federal government may support the

       22          industry in taking a leadership role in the

       23          strategy, and we invite your comments on other

       24          ideas as well.

       25                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  Our sixth strategic

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          issue deals with data coordination and both the

        2          USDA and the EPA have a tremendous amount of data

        3          both in regard to animal feeding operations and

        4          in regard to water quality.

        5                      Much of the data that USDA and water

        6          conservation districts have delivered to USDA are

        7          basically a feeling of confidentiality that the

        8          producers have in giving us this data.

        9                      And I believe Glenda mentioned this

       10          earlier, that this data is going to remain

       11          confidential in our conservation case files and

       12          as a matter of fact, the administrator for EPA

       13          recognizes the trust relationship that has been

       14          developed over the years in trying to get

       15          conservation implemented and does not want to

       16          violate that trust relationship.

       17                      But we also recognize a need to take

       18          a look into the future about how data will be

       19          coordinated in the future.  So we have agreed to

       20          develop a joint policy statement in the strategy

       21          in regard to future data coordination.

       22                      The other thing I have mentioned

       23          several times about maximizing the environmental

       24          benefits per dollar spent is we want to make sure

       25          EPA and USDA are both using the same methodology

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          in analyzing that cost benefit ratio.

        2                      MR. HALL:  The final strategic issue

        3          is the answer to the question how do you know

        4          that you have gotten where you intended to get

        5          to.

        6                      It's basically performance

        7          measurements accountability.  This is

        8          particularly important for the federal government

        9          because of the Government Performance and Results

       10          Act, GPRA for short, which mandates that all

       11          federal agencies figure out what their objectives

       12          are and measure progress where it's meeting those

       13          objectives and indeed tie the budgets that they

       14          receive, money they receive, to whether or not

       15          they are meeting their objectives.

       16                      We wanted to develop a performance

       17          measurement system for implementation of the AFO

       18          strategy and in particular focus on programmatic

       19          activities that we can measure, as well as

       20          ultimately the most important, which is the

       21          environmental outcome.

       22                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  And Section 6 in the

       23          final section of the Strategy Act is a section

       24          that we call roles.

       25                      And it what this section does is it

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          lists -- I think it lists nine key groups in

        2          society that can have an impact and have an

        3          effect on implementing this strategy, and really,

        4          it's required that we all work together.

        5                      We've given like a paragraph or two

        6          in regard to these nine key groups and how they

        7          may be involved in the implementation of the

        8          strategy, but it is certainly absolutely

        9          necessary for the successful implementation of

       10          the strategies to get everyone involved.

       11                      MR. HALL:  This next slide here lists

       12          some options for getting a copy of the strategy.

       13          My understanding is there are probably copies in

       14          the back, if you don't have them already or at

       15          least an executive summary, and it is available

       16          through various phone numbers and on the world

       17          wide web.

       18                      MR. DELVECCHIO:  And last, but not

       19          least, we are in the midst of an official public

       20          comment period -- that is for a 120 day period

       21          that ends on January 19, 1999.

       22                      Your official comments can be sent to

       23          Denise Coleman at the address shown or via her

       24          e-mail address.  I believe in the back of the

       25          room, there are some self addressed envelopes

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          that if you want to put your comments in there,

        2          we more than welcome that.

        3                      Really, this is crucial to the

        4          development of the final strategy.  We want as

        5          many comments as we can get so that we can

        6          develop the best strategy.  The EPA and USDA will

        7          get together after the comment period ends,

        8          incorporate comments that are going to help the

        9          strategy better and analyze all the comments,

       10          first of all, and produce a final strategy in the

       11          spring of 1999.

       12                      Dr. Hicks, that's it.

       13                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Joe and Will.

       14                      We appreciate the background.  Do you

       15          have additional speakers?

       16                      We're now ready for the listening

       17          sessions and there are questions that may come.

       18          Our panel, to my left, Glenda Humiston -- I said

       19          Humiston a while ago and I was corrected by James

       20          Ford.  Humiston, Deputy Under Secretary for the

       21          Natural Resource and Environment.

       22                      James Ford, USDA/NRCS, State

       23          Conservationist for the State of Tennessee.  Fred

       24          Lindsey, you heard a minute ago or a few minutes

       25          ago, Deputy Director of the Office of Waste Water

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Management at EPA.

        2                      Mike McGhee, Director of Waste

        3          Management Division for EPA, Region 4, Atlanta.

        4          Am I right?

        5                      Fred Davis, Director of Tennessee

        6          Division of Water and Pollution Control.

        7                      And Louis Buck on the end, Deputy

        8          Commissioner for the Tennessee Department of

        9          Agriculture.

       10                      So that is your listening panel, so

       11          be prepared to move forward in a moment.

       12                      The technical reps here, in addition

       13          to Joe and Will, we have got James Sims.  And I

       14          hope I have got them in the right order.  James

       15          Sims, USDA/NRCS Tennessee State Conservation

       16          Engineer.

       17                      Catch the next one, and I will try

       18          not to get the "P" in there.  Roger Pfaff,

       19          Program Manager, Water Programs Enforcement

       20          Branch, EPA.

       21                      Roosevelt Childress, Chief Surface

       22          Water Permits Section, EPA Region 4.

       23                      And Steve Carmichael, USDA/NRCS,

       24          Liaison, Region 4, EPA/AFO.

       25                      Okay.  I will recognize the people

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          that have signed up, or the speakers that have

        2          signed up, in the order that they signed up.  I

        3          need to give you an introductory remark and then

        4          we'll go to those.

        5                      I would ask that Bill Nichols makes

        6          his way forward.  This is a listening session,

        7          and our primary purpose for being here is to

        8          allow as many of us as possible to comment and

        9          raise your concerns on this proposed strategy.

       10                      In order to facility the maximum

       11          number of participants, we will ask you to keep

       12          your limited remarks to no more than five

       13          minutes.  And we'll be keeping time and we'll ask

       14          that your remarks be terminated within that

       15          allotted time.

       16                      We apologize ahead of time for

       17          restraining your comments, but we must manage the

       18          time to assure that pertinent points are covered

       19          and that anyone who desires to speak is afforded

       20          the opportunity.

       21                      The listening panel may ask questions

       22          for clarifications, however we would ask that

       23          your statements be directed -- or direct -- for

       24          there is a verbatim record being taken of your

       25          comments, and the outcome of the listening

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          session will be posted to the internet to

        2          facilitate sharing of concerns across the nation.

        3                      Please observe the light that's on

        4          the table to my right.  The green light indicates

        5          four minutes to go.  The yellow lights, you need

        6          to summarize, there will be one remaining minute.

        7          And the red light means you need to end your


        9                      You do not have to take the full five

       10          minutes.

       11                      Please, for the record, clearly state

       12          your name and address and your affiliation, if

       13          you care to.  You have five minutes.

       14                      MR. NICHOLS:  My name is Bill

       15          Nichols.  I'm with R.F. Durham Company here in

       16          Chattanooga, and even though Will Hall narrowed

       17          the parameters so narrowly that he eliminated

       18          order management, I'm going to do about three

       19          minutes on order management.

       20                      We think that pork producers have

       21          three major problems.  The first problem is the

       22          profit margins are nonexistent.  The second is

       23          the EPA is looking over their shoulders to see

       24          how they rid their waste, and the third is that

       25          the neighbors are complaining about the odor.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      Now, we at R.F. Durham can eliminate

        2          the odor, and we know that because we have worked

        3          with Iowa State University for two years.  We

        4          developed a propane fired catalytic converter

        5          that absolutely eliminates the odors in the

        6          tanks.

        7                      Now, then we come to a real problem.

        8          We cannot get a test site.  This was in their pig

        9          farm on campus, but we need to go to a pork

       10          producer.  We need a pork producer and we need

       11          funding.  And we have tried for two years to get

       12          ahold of Senator Tom Harkin to no avail.  We got

       13          ahold of his chief of staff, who was born and

       14          raised in Brooklyn, and I don't think he can

       15          spell agriculture.

       16                      We have tried through Zach Wamp to

       17          get ahold of Tom Harkin, and I can't do it, so

       18          we're here at your mercy.

       19                      There should be somebody in this

       20          group that can tell us how to get ahold of the

       21          right people, either in Washington or Tennessee

       22          or in Iowa because we're a company of twenty

       23          people, and we just need minimal funding so we

       24          can tell the pork producer what this program will

       25          cost per marketed pig.  Thank you.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mr. Nichols.

        2                      I would ask that if you need any

        3          questions you let me know, and we will proceed

        4          accordingly.

        5                      The next speaker is Art Darling --

        6          name address?

        7                      MR. DARLING:  My name is Art Darling.

        8                      I'm an employee of Southeast Milk

        9          Incorporated in Bellview, Florida.

       10                      We have 253 dairy farmer members in

       11          Florida and Georgia who produce about 2.8 million

       12          pounds of milk annually from about 190,000

       13          cattle.

       14                      The majority of our dairy farms have

       15          been in their present location for at least a

       16          decade and many, at least a number of them, a

       17          large number of them fifty years or more on the

       18          same land.

       19                      I am concerned with dairy farms only

       20          and concerned with existing dairy farms only.

       21                      Florida dairy farmers were among the

       22          first to experience tough regulation.  In 1987

       23          our state passed a rule for one of the larger

       24          areas in our state of dairy farms that resulted

       25          in the closing of forty percent of those dairy

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          farms.

        2                      It did improve the surface water

        3          quality, but revealed that a bigger effort

        4          involving other human activities needed to be

        5          included.  It also revealed that it was going to

        6          take decades to get back to the levels of

        7          phosphorus coming off that land that they wanted.

        8                      We have a separate project now going

        9          on in the north end of the state, which I only

       10          mention because we have one of our dairy farmers

       11          from that area who will be speaking to you later

       12          and will tell you about that effort.

       13                      My point is you cannot solve the

       14          problems by segregating the issue and addressing

       15          just large animal operations.

       16                      In that regard, I believe the

       17          strategy must include more flexibility to

       18          recognize states and state efforts that are

       19          effectively addressing these kinds of pollution

       20          efforts.

       21                      For example, Florida's DEP is working

       22          with our industry, and they have been working

       23          with them and we are concerned that this effort

       24          will railroad -- disroad -- the effort that we

       25          currently have in the state of Florida.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      We think that the strategy is too

        2          regulatory in its approach.  Even though you say

        3          you're not going to have new regulation, you're

        4          talking about permitting of all CAFOs.

        5                      In Florida, the average dairy is 660

        6          cows, so you know we have a lot of dairies that

        7          are unpermitted that are over 700 head that have

        8          been doing things, and they are meeting the state

        9          standards that we have in Florida.

       10                      If you're going to change that, it is

       11          going to have a very disruptive effect on the

       12          milk supply in our state, and I think in the

       13          southeast.

       14                      I wish that you would review the

       15          language included in the president's executive

       16          order on food safety.  If you will go back and

       17          look at that, and perhaps maybe even be

       18          consistent including that, it talks very strongly

       19          to the state's role in this kind of effort.  And

       20          it may be one place where plagiarism would make

       21          some sense.

       22                      We very much oppose removing the

       23          twenty-five year, twenty-four hour storm event

       24          exemption.

       25                      If you are familiar with Florida, we

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          get fifty-four inches of rain a year, most of it

        2          in four months.  There are times of the year when

        3          we literally have our water table at the surface

        4          of the ground or a little bit above.

        5                      It would be just simply impossible to

        6          design a system, and I asked our state

        7          conservationist earlier this afternoon, it would

        8          be probably be impossible to design a system

        9          economically that you could work down there.  And

       10          if you tell us, well, maybe we shouldn't be

       11          there, then I'll tell you that maybe you should

       12          tell that to the five million people that live in

       13          Miami, that they shouldn't be there.

       14                      This issue was raised at a St. Louis

       15          meeting on ground water and that goes by the

       16          USDA's Ag Research Service that lagoons should be

       17          phased out and maybe they shouldn't be doing any

       18          legislation or any research on them.

       19                      This alarms us.  I have had the same

       20          discussion -- not discussion, but I did make a

       21          presentation in regard to Senator Harkin's bill

       22          and made the point that in his bill, it says that

       23          you can't have a lagoon that goes into ground

       24          water.  In Florida, everything is into the ground

       25          water.  So how do you deal with that?

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      It gets back to the geological

        2          situation that we're dealing with in Florida.

        3          When I mentioned this to my coop president, he

        4          pointed out that his lagoon is dug into ninety

        5          feet of white clay that meets the Department of

        6          Transportation Standards.

        7                      Boy, this five minutes is going fast.

        8                      The concept -- you need to have some

        9          sort of way -- gosh, I wish I could find this in

       10          here.  But we need incentive.  You aren't giving

       11          the dairy farmers any buy-in to this approach

       12          that you have got.

       13                      There needs to be some sort of way to

       14          get a buy-in for the landowner, and it isn't in

       15          there yet, ladies and gentlemen.  And I guess the

       16          best thing I can say is it just isn't in there,

       17          and I'm going to have to put it in writing to you

       18          as to how I think it could get it in there.

       19                      I will give it to you in writing.

       20          I wish I had a little more time, but I

       21          understand.

       22                      MR. HICKS:  There may be a question.

       23                      MR. LINDSEY:  Let me give you another

       24          thirty or forty seconds, and you can give us the

       25          kind of thing you think would be an appropriate

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          incentive.

        2                      MR. DARLING:  In Florida, if you

        3          don't discharge, you don't have to get a permit.

        4          You aren't defined as a CAFO.  That is the kind

        5          of incentives that we want.

        6                      My farmers, and I think any farmer

        7          does not want a permit.  He does not want you

        8          people on his property.  And I think we can use

        9          the various factors in our state, and I don't

       10          know about other states.  I believe Georgia is

       11          doing this as well, but we can use those dairy

       12          inspectors, and we can cooperate with DEP and we

       13          think there's a good program that will work.

       14                      But if you are going to come in and

       15          do the permitting and require these on-site

       16          inspections, I think what I'm going to have is

       17          dairies shutting down because I have seen that

       18          already. That's not a threat. I think that's just

       19          reality.

       20                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mr. Darling.

       21                      I'm sure we'll appreciate your

       22          written comments as well.

       23                      David Matteson, Mr. Matteson, you

       24          have almost five minutes.

       25                      MR. MATTESON:  I am David Matteson.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      I represent the Georgia Young's

        2          Farmers Program.

        3                      I work with several dairies in

        4          northwest Georgia and north Georgia, and this

        5          will give you a little history of why I'm here.

        6                      About six years ago, what y'all are

        7          talking about, we have already done.  We went and

        8          applied for a Section 319 grant through EPA and

        9          received it in EPA and Georgia EPD, and we worked

       10          with FSA and NCRS and we now -- in all the

       11          dairies I work with in waste management programs,

       12          we require soil samples, we do waste management

       13          plans.

       14                      One of our problems is that one of

       15          the things that you mentioned, that Bill

       16          mentioned, was the high phosphorus.  Our soil is

       17          already high.  We can't lower it, it's natural

       18          and that's something that has not been addressed

       19          today.  Because we're not getting much change

       20          when we put it out, and we put it out properly.

       21                      But what do you do when it's already

       22          there, when God already gave it to you?  So,

       23          that's one of our situations that I want you to

       24          address.

       25                      Thank you.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Questions?

        2                      Chris Waylor.  The next speakers

        3          might move toward the front.

        4                      MR. WAYLOR:  My name is Chris Waylor.

        5                      I'm with the Georgia Poultry

        6          Federation out of Gainesville, Georgia.  We

        7          appreciate the opportunity of making a short

        8          statement on behalf of the Georgia Poultry

        9          Federation,the Alabama Poultry and Egg

       10          Association, the Mississippi Feed and Grain

       11          Association, the South Carolina Poultry

       12          Association and the Tennessee Egg and Poultry

       13          Association.

       14                      We want to thank EPA and USDA for

       15          their joint action in preparing the Unified

       16          National Strategy for animal feeding operations.

       17          We appreciate you having this meeting and to

       18          provide us with additional information and to

       19          hear our comments.

       20                      We believe that it certainly makes

       21          sense to have a national plan and direction,

       22          rather than having a wide variety and patchwork

       23          of possibly inconsistent counterproductive

       24          statewide requirements.  The poultry industry has

       25          a vital interest in protecting our environment

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          for the future, and we want to be good stewards

        2          of both the land and the water and all of our

        3          national resources.

        4                      As you know, the National Poultry

        5          Environmental Dialogue is meeting today in

        6          Washington, DC to attempt to finalize a voluntary

        7          component of the Unified National Strategy.

        8                      The dialogue includes representatives

        9          of UPPD, EPA, USDA, NRCS, Extension Service,

       10          Poultry Water Quality Consortium and a host of

       11          other environmental groups -- the National

       12          Broiler Counsel and U.S. Poultry and Egg

       13          Association.

       14                      After receiving a copy of the group's

       15          report and written recommendations, we would like

       16          to file a supplemental written comments with you.

       17                      Again, thank you for giving us this

       18          opportunity to listen and speak.

       19                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Questions?

       20                      Lena Beth Carmichael.  You have up to

       21          five minutes, Lena Beth.

       22                      MS. CARMICHAEL:  I teach agriculture

       23          at Hiawassee College in Madisonville, Tennessee.

       24          I brought four of my students with me today who

       25          have been accessing the internet to get

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          information on what's going on.  That was

        2          required.  I didn't require them to come down

        3          here with me.

        4                      I am married to a dairy farmer in

        5          east Tennessee.  I have seen a lot of people I

        6          know here since I came in, however most of them

        7          are not farmers.  Most of them, I work with in

        8          extension agencies.

        9                      Most of the farmers I know are at

       10          home working.  And I had one tell me it was

       11          useless to come, it's a done deal anyway, just to

       12          give you an idea of how they feel.

       13                      One of the things I have a concern

       14          about is the number of cows that are going to

       15          wind up being on what would be regulated.  My

       16          concern is that number will keep lowering and

       17          lowering and lowering until it affects all of us

       18          that left financially in business in the dairy

       19          industry.

       20                      I would like to urge you and implore

       21          you to keep it affecting the large operations and

       22          not the smaller family farms.

       23                      In reading about who's to write this

       24          CNMP, I have suggested increased farmer education

       25          and farmer's involvement in writing of their own

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          CNMPs, not that it be written and handed down to

        2          them.

        3                      I will be watching to see everything

        4          I can learn about it, because on our farm if

        5          we'll be involved in it, I guess I'll be the one

        6          writing it.

        7                      Another one in Strategic Issue Number

        8          2 on 5.0, Strategic Issue Number 2, the cost

        9          sharing would certainly help the farmers to

       10          comply.  We do everything we can with genetics,

       11          with feed, with machinery.  And we have got the

       12          weather to deal with.  Finances are a problem,

       13          and we do try to do the best we can with our

       14          land.  We are farmers.

       15                      We appreciate the addition of cost

       16          sharing programs so that we can comply with what

       17          is done, and therefore maintain to help our own

       18          situations.

       19                      I was explaining, or trying to

       20          explain to my nine year old, where I was going

       21          this evening and why.  This took several miles

       22          going down the road to explain why mama was

       23          coming down here.  And as I explained the manure

       24          thing, he's like, like our manure pit.  And I'm

       25          like, yes.  And like when we pump it out, and I'm

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          like, yes.

        2                      And we explained all this, and how

        3          the regulations are going further and further

        4          along.

        5                      Our families have farmed for

        6          generations.  He's our only hope to keep going on

        7          with it.  And he said, "Are they trying to put us

        8          out of business?"

        9                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Lena Beth.

       10                      The sixth speaker is Keith Shiver.

       11          Did I get that right?

       12                      MR. SHIVER:  My name is Keith Shiver.

       13                      I'm representing Southeast Milk out

       14          of Florida.  I came from a dairy farm, also.  My

       15          farm has been in existence since 1953.  I have

       16          currently come back from the farm after

       17          graduating from the University of Florida this

       18          past May.

       19                      We are currently milking about 500

       20          dairy animals and grow about five hundred acres

       21          of crops for our cattle and about six fields

       22          under irrigation pivots.  One -- the new one has

       23          been enacted under the PL 566 law to help pump

       24          the lagoon out on our pastures.  We had one and

       25          we have forty more actives now that were pumping

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          waste out on them.

        2                      So -- first off, I would like to

        3          thank you for having -- being able to come and

        4          voice the rest of the dairy farmers in Florida's

        5          opinion on how they think about the Draft

        6          Strategy.

        7                      Producers in Florida are feeling a

        8          lot of uncertainty about the new draft's

        9          inability to present a plan that they feel will

       10          be sustainable for in the future.

       11                      Producers in Florida have been

       12          working hard with various state and national

       13          organizations on voluntary/regulatory programs,

       14          and to help -- that are helping bringing AFOs

       15          into compliance with the existing laws in effect

       16          now.

       17                      The farmers want to feel certain that

       18          the time and money spent on CNMPs will be

       19          sustainable way into the future.

       20                      The current programs that we have

       21          now -- most of the concern is coming from -- the

       22          programs are working.  Currently in Suwannee and

       23          Lafayette Counties in Florida, they are under the

       24          Public Law 566 and a lot of -- as a voluntary,

       25          slash, regulatory program that we've been working

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          on, and it's working.

        2                      It's -- we're seeing nitrogen levels

        3          go down.  The relationship between the different

        4          organizations and producers are very good, and

        5          we're scared that if a new plan is coming into

        6          effect, then this is going to hurt the

        7          relationships that we're having now.  And it's

        8          going to break down this kind of strategy that

        9          we're trying to work on as we speak.

       10                      Mr. Darling has really gone over

       11          everything that I had planned to say.

       12                      As far as revenue things go, we're

       13          afraid that it's going to kind of -- not just so

       14          much threaten the producers and put them out of

       15          business, as well as the community that we're in

       16          already.

       17                      Lafayette County, the county that I'm

       18          producing milk in, the economy in Lafayette

       19          County -- eighty-four percent of the economy is

       20          dairy driven.  And if these policies and

       21          strategies are in effect happens to have a

       22          negative effect, then it's going to just really

       23          kill the economy in Lafayette County.

       24                      The last point I would like to make

       25          is the plan has a thing into effect where it's

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          talking phosphorus levels in the soil.

        2                      As the other gentlemen had stated

        3          before, we feel like there's more research that

        4          needs to be brought out for -- there's a set plan

        5          to put that into effect where there's just got to

        6          be more research because phosphorus is in the

        7          soil already.

        8                      And there's just really no way of

        9          really figuring out how much the dairy producers

       10          are putting into the soil without having more

       11          research done.

       12                      Thank you.

       13                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Questions?

       14                      Let me just say to you that the panel

       15          members will be here at least until 7:00.  So if

       16          at the end of the list of speakers that wish to

       17          be heard, the panel will interact with you and

       18          discuss points of interest that you might have.

       19                      And we do have more speakers.

       20                      The seventh person on the list is

       21          Mike Scudder or is that Skuder.

       22                      MR. SCUDDER:  Scudder.

       23                      MR. HICKS:  All right.

       24                      Sorry about that.

       25                      MR. SCUDDER:  My name is Mike

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Scudder.  And I represent the Tennessee Pork

        2          Producer's Association.

        3                      And I would like to submit for the

        4          record the National Pork Producer's Council's

        5          Environmental Resource Guide.  This guide

        6          describes NPPC's policy regarding environmental

        7          requirements for all types and sizes of pork

        8          production.

        9                      Dr. Hicks, I guess I will just hand

       10          this to you.

       11                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.

       12                      MR. SCUDDER:  I have a few other

       13          brief comments I would like to make.

       14                      Many of the ideas in the draft and

       15          Unified National Strategies for Animal Feeding

       16          Operations puts the requirement for nutrient

       17          management plans -- mirror the recommendations of

       18          the 1997 National Environmental Dialogue on Pork

       19          Production.

       20                      This is when producers and regulators

       21          sat down together for eight months and came up

       22          with guidelines to ensure environmentally

       23          sustainable pork production.

       24                      We, the pork producers, support the

       25          manure management plans, and on many farms this

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          is already being accomplished.

        2                      Manure should be considered as a

        3          asset, not a liability.  I mean, there is nothing

        4          any more natural to add back to the soil than

        5          what we can manufacturer today, such as

        6          commercial fertilizer.

        7                      This produces healthy crops and

        8          lowers our dependance on commercial fertilizer.

        9          We encourage air quality and all research, as

       10          well, providing technical assistance necessary to

       11          help livestock producers make environmental

       12          improvements in our operations.

       13                      While we're not opposed to

       14          regulations, and in fact, to a certain degree, we

       15          support regulations to protect our environment,

       16          we believe that these regulations must be based

       17          on sound science.  Decisions and assumptions made

       18          based only on the size of the farm, rather than

       19          its environmental performance have no place in

       20          regulations of any kind.

       21                      While America's pork producers

       22          genuinely support the goals of the Unified

       23          Strategy, we oppose -- we oppose any and all

       24          instances where the Draft Strategy allows social

       25          policy to override sound science.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      Our ongoing environmental programs

        2          such as on farm odor environmental programs and

        3          odor solution initiative reflect this commitment.

        4          We're promoting environmental efforts that are

        5          sensible, achievable, and reflect the varying

        6          production systems in place today and allow

        7          producers to make maximum use of crop growing

        8          nutrients in hog manure as part of a sustainable

        9          land based agricultural system.

       10                      Pork producers believe that a

       11          cooperative effort between producers and

       12          regulatory agencies is the most effective,

       13          efficient and rapid way to achieve excellent

       14          environmental performance at farm level. The

       15          National Pork Dialogue is one example of this

       16          cooperative effort.

       17                      Our state association, and along with

       18          the National Pork Producers Council, believe that

       19          producers must manage our operations in a

       20          environmentally responsible manner.

       21                      Programs like those mentioned today

       22          make this possible.

       23                      Thank you.

       24                      MR. LINDSEY:  I have a question.

       25                      Just briefly, the environmental

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          resource guide which you gave us, and also the

        2          National Pork Producer's Dialogue, do you see any

        3          particular inconsistencies between any the

        4          that -- any of those items and, say, this

        5          strategy?

        6                      MR. SCUDDER:  No, sir, I don't.  Not

        7          major.  They go along pretty well together.

        8                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mike.  Our

        9          next speaker is John M. Moore, another farmer,

       10          Lena Beth.

       11                      MS. CARMICHAEL:  Good.

       12                      MR. MOORE:  As you said, I'm a dairy

       13          farmer.  Also on the Soil Conservation Board of

       14          Supervisors and also on the Farm Bureau's Dairy

       15          Advisory Commodity Board.

       16                      First of all, I would like to say I

       17          feel like you wonder why we feel like we're

       18          backed into a corner when we're given five

       19          minutes and y'all are given an unlimited amount

       20          of time.  And we feel like we're backed into a

       21          corner.

       22                      Then because I'm on the Soil

       23          Conservation Board, I had the opportunity to be

       24          in Tunica, Mississippi in 1997.  At that

       25          convention -- Southeast Association of Soil

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Conservation Farmers were there, as well as

        2          middle Texas and Oklahoma and Arkansas.

        3                      At that convention, it was stated

        4          that one third of our pollution, so called, comes

        5          from a national forest.

        6                      It's at that level coming out of

        7          them, which we have no control over.  A third of

        8          it comes from agriculture and a third from our

        9          cities.

       10                      With that thought in mind, if a third

       11          of it we can't do any about because something

       12          comes from the air and some from animals in the

       13          forest, then I would contend with you that a

       14          third of our pollution from the farm also comes

       15          from nature, which we have no control over, which

       16          would lower that considerably.

       17                      Also, I learned in Nashville on

       18          Monday that a household of four takes forty days

       19          out of the year to earn enough money to buy their

       20          food.  It takes a hundred and twenty plus days to

       21          pay your taxes, so I think we ought to be given a

       22          policy of back slap.

       23                      Animal agricultural is changing

       24          rapidly.  The economic consideration and changing

       25          market make it necessary for farmers to use their

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          animals in larger units.  These changes have

        2          caused greater public concern about the potential

        3          for pollution and odor from animal agriculture.

        4                      However, our farms are not the

        5          environmental hazards that some people fear them

        6          to be.

        7                      Any regulations need to be designed

        8          to actually protect the environment and not

        9          simply to provide burdensome, regulatory hurdles

       10          for farmers to jump through.

       11                      The process must be economically

       12          feasible so that our family farms can afford to

       13          stay in business.  Complying with these

       14          regulations will not increase the net income of

       15          any farming operation.  To the contrary,

       16          compliance will cost the farmer.

       17                      The results are designed to benefit

       18          society as a whole at the expense of the farmer.

       19          Should society not pay some of the costs?

       20                      Does the state have the adequate

       21          funding and staff to timely implement these new

       22          permits?  Farmers do not need to be caught in

       23          paperwork backlog that causes a negative impact

       24          on their farming operation.

       25                      On a negative perspective, point

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          source authority there is evidence in a

        2          legislative district, SWA, that Congress only

        3          intended to control the release of in pipe

        4          effluence from CAFOs, and only those CAFOs which

        5          would collect a concentrated waste for discharge

        6          to a different point source outlet would qualify

        7          as point sources under the definition and be

        8          subject to the National Pollution Discharge

        9          Elimination Systems, NPDES, permitting program.

       10                      With this strategy and permitting

       11          process, the department's seeking to treat runoff

       12          from a prospective of precipitation as a type of

       13          discharge that can turn a farm operation to a

       14          CAFO.  We do not believe a facility is a CAFO if

       15          precipitation and runoff from fields where animal

       16          wastes have been applied lead to discharges

       17          entering the state's water.

       18                      We generally agree with the approach

       19          gives priority to watersheds first.  The water

       20          quality data on which this premise is inadequate.

       21          I'm going to run over my five minutes.

       22                      National water incentives in the

       23          states -- it acknowledges the weakness of the

       24          assessment methodology.

       25                      The U.S. geological survey has stated

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          in published reports that the National Water

        2          Quality Inventory Data is so severely clogged and

        3          significantly clouded that it could not been used

        4          to summarize water quality conditions and trends.

        5                      When we have more manure than the

        6          land to put it on, why can't we do what the city

        7          does, open our gates and let it run down the

        8          streams and rivers?

        9                      I told you I wouldn't get through.

       10                      But I would like to ask you one

       11          question before I sit down.

       12                      If because of CAFO, I have to go out

       13          of the dairy business and for some reason I sell

       14          my farm and it goes into a subdivision and two

       15          houses per acre or three with septic tanks on it,

       16          which are underground, but you don't see or

       17          smell, 365 days a year, versus my animal waste

       18          goes underground once our twice a year, and on

       19          separate field at that, the crop growing on that

       20          field will absorb and take up ninety to a hundred

       21          percent of it in a normal situation, which would

       22          you rather have?

       23                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mr. Moore.

       24          Questions?

       25                      We will have time at the end to

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          entertain other comments and questions from those

        2          of you that have already spoken, I believe.

        3          Mr. Charles Barker is next, another farmer.

        4                      MR. BARKER:  I'm a dairy farmer from

        5          right here locally.  I think we're an endangered

        6          species, and we're -- most of us, we like to be

        7          treated as well as the endangered species are

        8          being treated.

        9                      You talk about budget cuts.  There is

       10          not a farmer that I know that wouldn't be glad to

       11          take your budget cut.  When you were talking

       12          about budget cuts, you were talking about the

       13          increase of your budget.  You cut that percent

       14          increase.

       15                      In agricultural right now, you're

       16          talking a budget cut.  Most farmers -- I don't

       17          know any segment of agriculture right now that's

       18          profitable.  I'm a fourth generation dairy

       19          farmer.  When my father bought that farm there

       20          were ditches in that place you could put a

       21          Greyhound bus in and cover it up, and you would

       22          still have room to put two or three pickups.

       23                      And in fact, those particular fields

       24          now, no ditches there, some of the most

       25          productive land on our farm, and that wasn't done

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          by somebody holding a big stick over your head

        2          saying you have got to do this.

        3                      That was done voluntarily.  That was

        4          done because we saw the need.  My parents and my

        5          grandfather saw the need to take care of the land

        6          and water resources.  Everything we see is about

        7          save the family farm.  Everything you all are

        8          doing seems to be about putting us out of

        9          business.

       10                      You know, fifteen cent hogs and fifty

       11          cent cattle, we can't do a whole lot.  I think

       12          most of us are doing a good job.  We're raising

       13          our kids right there in it, right there on our

       14          farm.  Nobody closer to that manure than our

       15          children.

       16                      You know, we don't want to pollute;

       17          we want to be good stewards of the land.  You're

       18          talking about this voluntary regulatory agencies.

       19          Most people that used to -- you could go to soil

       20          conservation if you had a problem, and they would

       21          come out and help you develop a plan to fix it.

       22                      Now, most of the farmers I know, they

       23          don't want those people on their place because

       24          they think they are going to go talk to somebody

       25          and come out there and say, well, you're causing

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          a problem, I'm going to fine you $25,000.  We

        2          can't stand that in agriculture.

        3                      If we've got a problem -- I'm sure

        4          there are a few bad apples out there, but there's

        5          bad apples everywhere, but you don't throw the

        6          whole bushel out for one bad apple.

        7                      We need a common sense approach.  If

        8          we have got a problem -- if I've got a problem

        9          with my farm, nobody wants to fix it more than I

       10          do.  I don't want pollute my dairy and my farm.

       11          The river on our place, when I was a kid you

       12          could walk across it because it was muddy all the

       13          time.

       14                      Now, it takes a real hard rain for it

       15          to get muddy, and most of that comes from the new

       16          highways they built across the mountain.  Most of

       17          that sediment is coming from there.  And so you

       18          know -- but agriculture gets blamed for that.

       19          It's not our fault.  We can't do anything about

       20          that.

       21                      You know, the big stick method has

       22          been tried in other countries.  Look at Russia.

       23          Everybody can't feed themselves now.  And less

       24          than two percent of the people are producing the

       25          food for this country and a big part of the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          world.  And if this thing -- things like that

        2          keep going, you know, my son and daughter, they

        3          are not going to have an opportunity to farm

        4          because we won't be around.

        5                      Thank you.

        6                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Questions?

        7                      MS. HUMISTON:  Yes.

        8                      MR. HICKS:  There's a question here.

        9                      MS. HUMISTON:  Well, I just have to

       10          ask this because I don't know that anybody in

       11          this room necessarily disagrees with a single

       12          thing you have just said, frankly.  But as I said

       13          in my opening remarks, when we put the strategy

       14          together, it is based on existing law, laws that

       15          have been out there twenty-five years.

       16                      MR. BARKER:  I understand that.

       17                      MS. HUMISTON:  And there are those

       18          folks that say throughout the nation who would

       19          say let's just go out there and enforce that law.

       20                      MR. BARKER:  They've got to eat, too.

       21                      MS. HUMISTON:  Just like I said, I

       22          don't think anybody here disagrees with a word

       23          you said.

       24                      But what we tried to do with the

       25          strategy is let you know very clearly, and the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          public, where were going to target the

        2          enforcement.

        3                      It's going to be the bad apples and

        4          it's going to be places where you've got impaired

        5          water that is clearly a problem, not where there

        6          isn't a problem.

        7                      And at the same time, the other half

        8          of the strategy, we're trying to make technical

        9          assistance and educational cost share dollars

       10          available, you know, even to a larger degree than

       11          we have in the past.

       12                      Everything you said just now was

       13          great, but I guess my question to you is:  What

       14          would you necessarily change in the strategy the

       15          way we wrote it to try to get to where you're

       16          going?  What would you change?

       17                      Let me give you one caveat.  None of

       18          us in here can rewrite the Clean Water Act.

       19          Congress is going to attempt to do that next

       20          year.

       21                      So with that caveat, current law, how

       22          would you rewrite something in that strategy?

       23                      MR. BARKER:  I guess one thing that

       24          really concerns producers -- if on my farm I have

       25          got a mud hole as big as that table and I go out

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          there drain it, and they come and catch it, I

        2          will get more time in the penitentiary than if I

        3          pulled out a gun and shoot one of you.  That's a

        4          fact.

        5                      And when you have got that, that

        6          means that there's something wrong with the law,

        7          when a mud hole is worth more than a human life.

        8                      MS. HUMISTON:  You're talking

        9          wetlands, which, like I say, we ain't touching in

       10          this.

       11                      MR. BARKER:  You can understand where

       12          we're afraid this will go.  I have paid taxes on

       13          that mud hole, and if I can't raise something on

       14          it -- if I can't get something off of it, that's

       15          a liability.

       16                      MS. HUMISTON:  Well, I'm in the

       17          middle of representing the Department of Ag

       18          renegotiating the wetlands.

       19                      My question is:  This strategy

       20          dealing with where there are legitimate water

       21          quality problems and trying to have a balance --

       22          and I would like to think positive approach to

       23          solving those problems -- what would you rewrite

       24          in the strategy?

       25                      And if you can't answer now, get it

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          in writing.  It doesn't do us any good for you to

        2          come up here and --

        3                      MR. BARKER:  And talk.

        4                      MS. HUMISTON:  Well, I mean, it does

        5          but, like I said, I don't think anybody disagrees

        6          with you, but how do we solve the problems?

        7          That's my question.  What do we change?

        8                      MR. BARKER:  I think the big thing

        9          that needs to be changed is regulatory.

       10                      I mean, if I have got a problem now,

       11          if I even think I've got a problem, I'm not going

       12          to ask anybody for fear somebody is going to come

       13          down and say, you have got do this, instead of

       14          saying, well, yes, you may have a problem, then

       15          let's try to do everything to fix it.

       16                      MS. HUMISTON:  Okay.

       17                      MR. BARKER:  I think it needs to be

       18          more voluntary.

       19                      Nobody -- there is nobody in this

       20          country any more independent than a bunch of

       21          farmers.  You know, that's just our nature.  If

       22          we wasn't, who would be raising hogs and selling

       23          fifty cents when it's costing thirty cents.  You

       24          know, we're not for -- most of us, for the money.

       25          It's in our blood.  I guess it's a curse, I don't

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          know.

        2                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Charles.

        3          Appreciate that.  Bettye Glover, the number ten

        4          speaker.  Would Bettye Glover be here.

        5                      MS. GLOVER:  I'm here.

        6                      MR. HICKS:  Next one will be Todd

        7          Jackson.

        8                      MS. GLOVER:  Sorry, I have the wrong

        9          package.  Bound for a woman to be late.

       10                      MR. HICKS:  That's all right.

       11                      MS. GLOVER:  I, too, appreciate the

       12          opportunity to get to talk with you.

       13                      MR. HICKS:  Your name is?

       14                      MS. GLOVER:  My name is Bettye

       15          Glover, and I am chairman of the Friends of

       16          Drake's Creek and Red River in Portland,

       17          Tennessee.  We're in Sumner County in northern

       18          and middle Tennessee about five miles south of

       19          the Tennessee/Kentucky state line.

       20                      Our citizens committee was formed

       21          December of 1997 after we learned that Cagles,

       22          Incorporated planned to build a hatchery and feed

       23          mill south of Franklin, Kentucky about ten miles

       24          north of us, and that Mr. Cagle intended to build

       25          his processing plant in the city of Auburn,

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Kentucky, Simpson County.

        2                      To serve this facility, Cagles

        3          targeted six counties in northern and middle

        4          Tennessee including Sumner, and six in southern

        5          Kentucky, 468 chicken houses which would be on

        6          Highway 52.  Later the number of chicken houses

        7          was increased to 525.

        8                      With help from the Friends of Drakes

        9          Creek and Franklin, Kentucky, our small citizen's

       10          committee worked to educate themselves and the

       11          election officials in the Tennessee counties who

       12          were to receive the CAFOs.

       13                      And by the way, we don't have any

       14          chicken houses from Cagles in Sumner County yet.

       15                      In late summer, 1997 our committee

       16          joined the Clean Water Network and became a part

       17          of its Feedlot Work Group.

       18                      From this vantage point, we have

       19          watched the development of USDA and EPA national

       20          AFO strategy.  Historically speaking, feedlots

       21          were recognized as the point source of pollution

       22          over twenty years ago when the Clean Water Act

       23          was enacted, but the NPDES requirements for CAFOs

       24          had been mostly ignore rather than enforced.

       25                      Less than twenty percent of the ten

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          thousand factory farms across America have

        2          obtained Clean Water accruements.  States have

        3          established their own regulatory or voluntary

        4          programs which failed to address interstate

        5          waters which encouraged industries to pollution

        6          shop.

        7                      Factory farm pollution continues to

        8          pollute the nation's water and air and to

        9          threaten public health.  We make the following

       10          recommendations, the following: they can create a

       11          Clean Water Act for the control of animal factory

       12          pollution.

       13                      Number 1, a moratorium on Clean Water

       14          Act permits for new and expanding factory farms

       15          should be instituted.  The moratorium should

       16          stand until existing facilities -- or until EPA

       17          upgrades its standards.

       18                      Number 2, local citizens should be

       19          allowed to participate fully in the decision as

       20          to whether a factory farm is allowed to locate in

       21          their community.  Citizens should help decide

       22          what pollution controls are needed.  We need

       23          individual site specific permits with the public

       24          allowed to give input.

       25                      The EPA/USDA Draft Strategy heavily

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          relies upon the use of general permits for animal

        2          factories especially for existing operations.  A

        3          national permitting system is needed to create

        4          greater consistency than is and protection across

        5          the nation than is offered by current state laws.

        6                      A Clean Water Act permit is designed

        7          to protect the water and allow citizens systems

        8          to sue.  Permits should be backed up by

        9          meaningful compliance.  EPA should require states

       10          to strictly enforce the law through periodic and

       11          unannounced inspections and penalties that will

       12          ensure compliance.

       13                      I need to point out here that we're

       14          talking about factory farms.  We're talking about

       15          the mega operations, not the family farmers.

       16                      I'm a farmer's daughter.  My father

       17          is a farmer seventy years, and they get it from

       18          all directions.  I would like to speak a good

       19          word for the farmers.

       20                      We found out, at least the

       21          environmental groups, have looked at sustainable

       22          agriculture and have found out that our family

       23          farmers can do it and do a better job and create

       24          more jobs and affect the economy greater than

       25          these mega farms and that needs to be looked at.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      I'm sorry that I forgot to bring the

        2          booklet.  If you want the booklet that shows all

        3          this, I would be glad to provide it for you.

        4                      Open air manure cesspools on factory

        5          farms and the spraying of manure and urine into

        6          the air should be banned.  Environmentally

        7          friendly farming systems should be encouraged.

        8          Liquid waste systems, including lagoons and

        9          aerial spraying of animal wastes have proved

       10          environmentally risky when they are involved on a

       11          factory farm scale.  They should be banned from

       12          factory farms.

       13                      Technologies that do not rely on the

       14          storage of liquid manure or that store manure in

       15          a dryer form should replace them.

       16                      Additionally, environmentally

       17          friendly farm systems should be encouraged,

       18          including composting and pasture systems.

       19                      EPA/USDA's Draft Strategy barely

       20          mentions more sustainable approaches. The

       21          strategy appears to support the continued use of

       22          liquid manure systems in the factory farms in the

       23          short term and does commit to banning lagoons and

       24          spray fields in the long term.

       25                      The strategy fails to embrace a

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          comprehensive approach to addressing all elements

        2          of degradation, not just water.

        3                      Number 4, manure should not been

        4          allowed to rot on the land.  One of the best

        5          features of the EPA/USDA Draft Strategy would

        6          require factory farms to follow plans aimed at

        7          protecting soil and water from pollution through

        8          the application of too much manure as fertilizer.

        9          Okay.

       10                      Well, I have a couple of more points

       11          and I'll just read the main ones.  All right.

       12                      Number 5, the nation's water must be

       13          protected from poultry manure.  Chicken factories

       14          should be regulated under the Clean Water Act,

       15          and it goes on to talk about the problem with dry

       16          litter.

       17                      Number 6, corporations that own

       18          livestock animals need to be responsible for

       19          paying the cost of waste disposal and clean up.

       20                      Large corporations offer contracts

       21          with small producers to raise their chickens and

       22          swine but do not take the responsibility for

       23          disposing of the animal's waste.

       24                      And do I need to hand this in to

       25          somebody or do I just need to mail it in?

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. HICKS:  Mail it in.  There are

        2          envelopes.

        3                      MS. GLOVER:  I would like to say one

        4          more thing.  On December 3rd, the Clean Water

        5          Network and the Natural Resources Defense Counsel

        6          published this report called "American Animal

        7          Factories, How States Fail to Prevent Pollution

        8          From Livestock Waste."

        9                      I am sure most of you are familiar

       10          with this.  This covers what is going on in

       11          thirty states and Tennessee is included.  It is a

       12          problem of getting the law implemented and

       13          enforced basically all over the country.

       14                      I brought extra copies of these.  If

       15          somebody would like to have a copy, I would be

       16          glad to provide them.  I don't have an awful lot,

       17          but I would be glad to share what I have.  Thank

       18          you so much.

       19                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Ms. GLover.

       20          There's a question here.

       21                      MR. BUCK:  Good afternoon, Ms.

       22          Glover, how are you?

       23                      MS. GLOVER:  I'm fine, sir.

       24                      MR. BUCK:  I'm Louis Buck with the

       25          Department of Agriculture.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      You talk about chicken factories and

        2          animal factories quite a bit.  Could you tell me,

        3          and I know you are familiar with broilers -- how

        4          many would it take for you to define it as a

        5          factory farm?

        6                      MS. GLOVER:  How many broiler houses?

        7                      MR. BUCK:  How many broiler houses

        8          would it take for you to define that?

        9                      MS. GLOVER:  It's generally defined,

       10          I believe, in the laws as a hundred thousand

       11          chickens.  I believe that's what it is defined.

       12                      So if you have five chicken houses

       13          that had twenty thousand chickens in them and you

       14          would have a hundred thousand chickens then that

       15          would meet the legal requirement, I think --

       16          definition of a CAFO.

       17                      MR. BUCK:  That's correct.  So you're

       18          okay with -- you would call somebody that had

       19          four broiler houses in Sumner County then to be a

       20          family farm?

       21                      MS. GLOVER:  No.  I really think the

       22          whole definition of that needs to be looked at.

       23                      MR. BUCK:  How many broiler houses do

       24          you think should be permitted then?

       25                      MS. GLOVER:  What now?

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MR. BUCK:  How many broiler houses

        2          would you recommend -- one, two, three or four

        3          would you recommend that the state permit?

        4                      MS. GLOVER:  Well, do you mean the

        5          entire state or do you just mean on one farm

        6          or --

        7                      MR. BUCK:  Well, you know we have a

        8          statewide strategy as well.  Or for Sumner

        9          County, for that matter.

       10                      Do you think -- what you have heard

       11          today would have a voluntary compliance for four

       12          broiler houses, do you think that's sufficient?

       13                      MS. GLOVER:  I think that the smaller

       14          farmers -- chicken farmers or whatever they

       15          are -- if they are responsible and can do a good

       16          job, I believe when you get over forty or fifty

       17          thousand chickens for one spot, problems come in

       18          as to do they have enough land to properly spray

       19          the manure.

       20                      And all of these factories that you

       21          have just discussed today have to be taken into

       22          consideration.  I find out that usually the

       23          family farmers, those that have been on the land

       24          for generations, try to take care of their land,

       25          try to do it properly.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      I know in some instances in North

        2          Carolina when a poultry farmer has spread this

        3          manure on their land for fourteen years, it kills

        4          the land if they do overspreading year after year

        5          after year.

        6                      I don't know how to answer your

        7          question -- is this for the whole state?

        8                      MR. BUCK:  Do I understand your

        9          response to be if a farmer has sufficient land

       10          mass, as determined by a nutrient management

       11          plan, you have no problem if the number of

       12          chickens match up with a Certified Nutrient

       13          Management Plan?

       14                      MS. GLOVER:  Well, I will go along

       15          with that.  I do think however, that that

       16          threshold for chickens for the whole thing needs

       17          to be lowered.

       18                      I don't think we need to put our

       19          small farmers out of business.  We need to do

       20          everything that we can to support them.

       21                      But at the hearing that the

       22          Department of Agriculture in Tennessee and the

       23          Division of Water Pollution Control and Tennessee

       24          Department of Environment and Conservation came

       25          on November the 5th for the general permit for

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          Class 2 CAFOs, and of course we had pretty much

        2          the same kind of thing you have here.

        3                      They explained the permits and then

        4          the farmers talked.  And after we got through,

        5          towards the end, this young former got up and

        6          said, "You know, I believe I can express what I

        7          have heard here this evening in one word."  He

        8          said, "It's called greed."

        9                      I really believe in this country that

       10          the greedy few have made tremendous problems for

       11          the rest of us.  And that's the only way I know

       12          how to explain it.

       13                      The number of chickens -- somebody

       14          could take forty thousand chickens and do a super

       15          job.  On the other hand, somebody who does not

       16          have enough land to spread the manure, doesn't

       17          have a good management plan, does not really take

       18          care of his process and do his job can make a

       19          horrible mess.

       20                      And again, you have to understand, it

       21          depends on where these farms are.  If you have

       22          got farms that if they overspread and it rains

       23          and it runs off into a nearby creek or if you've

       24          got sinkholes and caves in the area, I believe

       25          the nutrients go down through the soil and

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          pollute the aquafers underneath.

        2                      See, all these things have to come

        3          into play.  I don't really know how to answer

        4          your question, and I didn't mean to talk in

        5          circles.

        6                      MR. BUCK:  That's all I have.

        7                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Thank you,

        8          Ms. Glover.  There are, as I said, addressed

        9          envelopes for you to send back on this.  Todd

       10          Jackson.

       11                      MR. JACKSON:  I'm Todd Jackson and

       12          I'm a farmer as well from Spring City, Tennessee.

       13          Also, I teach agricultural as well at high school

       14          here in Hamilton County.  Tennessee Cattlemen

       15          Association, member of the Farm Bureau Board,

       16          member of the Livestock Commodity.

       17                      I'm not real, I guess, in tune --

       18          your comment -- I'm not familiar enough with the

       19          strategy to make the comments to really make the

       20          comments.  I will make some written comments.

       21                      A few things that I picked up tonight

       22          at the meeting that really concerned me were

       23          things that I wanted to express about.

       24                      Number 1, you're asking to us make

       25          comments and opinions based on a strategy that

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          you stated the regulatory arm of it would

        2          probably change within five or six years.

        3                      How can we make comments on that now?

        4          I just picked up on that tonight.

        5                      The other thing was on the joint

        6          policy statement you made about the trust and

        7          NRCS and things like that.  I think Charles hit

        8          on that earlier.  There is a terrible distrust

        9          with the regulatory functions and the farmers.

       10                      And then I'm afraid that of anything

       11          that may enhance that, and y'all know that.  You

       12          expressed that, but that's something that I

       13          wanted to point out as well.

       14                      Y'all -- the only other thing --

       15          everything that I jotted down has already been

       16          expressed.  We are stewards of the land.  We live

       17          there.  Our families live there.  We care more

       18          about it than the folks living in town.

       19                      The only other point that I want to

       20          bring out, and Mr. Moore sort of mentioned this.

       21          He was talking about the pollution was in thirds

       22          at some seminar he had picked up on.  I think

       23          you're asking a very small percentage of the

       24          population to make some pretty big sacrifices

       25          economically, especially the way things have been

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          recently to benefit a majority of people, and I

        2          think that needs to be spread a little bit.

        3                      And society as a whole wants to

        4          benefit from it, I think they need to help us a

        5          little bit more with the incentive programs and

        6          things like that.  That's all I have to say.

        7                      MR. HICKS:  Questions?  Thank you,

        8          Todd.  Eddie Byrd.

        9                      MR. BYRD:  My name is Eddie Byrd and

       10          I represent Georgia Milk Producers, and I'm also

       11          a dairy farmer in Walker County in North Georgia.

       12          I'm in the same county as David Matteson, and

       13          we're making every effort that we can voluntarily

       14          to try to do what we can.

       15                      MS. HUMISTON:  Can you put the mike

       16          up a little bit?

       17                      MR. BYRD:  We're making every effort

       18          that we can to try to comply with regulations

       19          before we're actually -- we get in trouble on

       20          this thing.

       21                      Sometimes it's like David said, we're

       22          doing what we can.  Most of them in our county

       23          probably won't fall into the confined size.  We

       24          don't have that many confined cattle.  We don't

       25          fall into the regulatory stage with them with the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          large amount of cattle.

        2                      We have several farms in the state of

        3          Georgia that does, but the smaller farms, we're

        4          trying to stay ahead of it.  So basically what

        5          we're going to need -- I'm going to try to not to

        6          be redundant on what some of the others have

        7          said.

        8                      We're going to need some cost sharing

        9          on this thing.  The dairy industry in Georgia is

       10          in turmoil right now.  I don't know if these

       11          people realize it, but we have had a tremendous

       12          amount of people going out of the dairy business,

       13          and it's because of the cash flow.

       14                      And basically if we impose some high

       15          costs to try to comply, then this is going to

       16          happen at an accelerated rate.  And basically

       17          we've been trucking a tremendous amount of milk

       18          into Georgia.  It's like we don't have enough

       19          milk for us to deal with supply now.  And it's

       20          pipelining right on down into Florida and moving

       21          down into there.

       22                      But what the problem is, you know, if

       23          there is a high cost imposed on these people,

       24          then they can't do it.  They are going out of

       25          business.  So basically that is kind of what, you

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          know, what I was aiming at from mine because all

        2          the rest of it as far as the compliance and so

        3          forth, the people have been talking we can't do

        4          this and we can't do that.  Well, that's true

        5          because this cash flow is going to stop us from

        6          doing that.

        7                      We're going to have to have some sort

        8          of time and some sort of help.  Like I say,

        9          they're leaving Georgia at an alarming rate and

       10          we can't stand, you know, these other producers

       11          to be going out.  And we don't want to see them

       12          end.

       13                      That's basically, you know, what I

       14          had to add.  Everything basically that the other

       15          people have said, I had on my notes.  But there's

       16          no need to repeat them.  So thank you.

       17                      MR. HICKS:  Hold on just one second.

       18          Is there a question?  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Byrd.

       19          Stefan Maupin.

       20                      MR. MAUPIN:  Thank you, Dean Hicks.

       21                      First of all, I want to say it's a

       22          pleasure for me to be before such an

       23          distinguished panel, and it's also just a little

       24          bit intimidating, too.

       25                      But I just want to make a few brief

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          oral comments.  My name is Stefan Maupin with the

        2          Tennessee Farm Bureau.  Our intentions are to

        3          submit specific comments within the next few

        4          weeks, written comments, but I do feel compelled

        5          just to make a few points based on the strategy.

        6                      We are concerned with the tone of the

        7          strategy.  We do feel like that it has a

        8          regulatory tone to it.  It does make references

        9          in a few cases to changing regulations, opening

       10          up the permit process, enhancing regulations.

       11                      We believe that this strategy should

       12          go along with the current regulations and just

       13          should be a focused approach on the current

       14          regulations without trying to make any changes to

       15          what the current regulations are.

       16                      Leading into my next point, I just

       17          want to say that the state should be able to

       18          handle their own problems.  We have had

       19          regulations for over twenty-five years on CAFO

       20          operations.  The states have come along and have

       21          addressed their own problems.

       22                      I spoke with several of our

       23          counterparts in surrounding southeast states and

       24          each of the states are dealing with their

       25          problems based on producer needs, the severity of

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          problems in their states and also agency

        2          resources.

        3                      So I would just like to say that the

        4          states should be allowed to address their own

        5          problems based on their own certain needs.

        6                      I know we have a concern about the

        7          strategy in the watershed approach.  The

        8          foundation behind a watershed approach in our

        9          mind is weak.  It's based on the 303 D list and

       10          we believe that the 303 D list is not the right

       11          foundation for a watershed approach.

       12                      Not now, but five, ten years from now

       13          we can see situations where operations would be

       14          shut down, where they may not be permitted again

       15          or would not been able to open up operations

       16          based on the fact that a watershed has a low

       17          Maximum Daily Load Numbers and would not be

       18          repermitted or be able to proceed with permit.

       19                      That was based on a list that was not

       20          put together for that purpose.  That leads to my

       21          next point, we also believe this strategy should

       22          be based on sound science.  The direction this

       23          strategy takes USDA/EPA into should be based on

       24          sound science.

       25                      We want to reiterate that again.  We

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          do not agree with a lot of the numbers we have

        2          seen as far as percentages that -- of waters and

        3          streams that agriculture has polluted.

        4                      We see several numbers out there that

        5          we just cannot agree with.  The science is not

        6          there behind them.  It's a shotgun approach.

        7                      We would just ask that this strategy

        8          be based on sound science.  And then I go back to

        9          the 303 D list.

       10                      I just want to give you an example.

       11          If I were a farmer in an area, and I was going to

       12          have to get a permit for my operations and I just

       13          happened to be within a watershed where the 303 D

       14          list said that the waters were impaired, and I

       15          was going to have to spend ten or fifteen

       16          thousand dollars, maybe more, up to fifty to

       17          sixty thousand dollars, and on my banker sheet

       18          that would not equate out to a profit or being

       19          able to pay back my loans -- if I were that

       20          farmer, you would better believe that I would

       21          want to know that I'm building my operation -- I

       22          would want to know everything that is in that

       23          stream or that creek and why it is polluted.

       24                      And based on the 303 D list,

       25          sometimes it is a shotgun approach and it is not

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          particularly based on sound science and some

        2          science is old.

        3                      And we would ask, of course, that the

        4          strategy be based on sound science.

        5                      Again, thank you for allowing us the

        6          opportunity to come and speak with you today and

        7          express come of our concerns and you will be

        8          receiving our comments at a later time.

        9                      MR. HICKS:  Is there a question?

       10          Thank you Mr. Maupin.

       11                      MR. MAUPIN:  Thank you.

       12                      MR. HICKS:  I'm going to mess this

       13          one up, too, I guess.  Frank Humenick?

       14                      At least I got you on your feet.

       15                      MR. HUMENICK:  Yes, it's me.

       16                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.

       17                      MR. HUMENICK:  I'm Frank Humenick.

       18          Work in the Animal Management Programs at North

       19          Carolina State University.  Virtually all the

       20          technical experts and producers that interact

       21          with us are very supportive of the no discharge

       22          criteria for the animal industry as developed

       23          according to the 1972 amendment for the Clean

       24          Water Act.

       25                      Benefits of the no discharge criteria

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          for effluent guidelines, and this would be no

        2          discharge criteria for all units regardless of

        3          size for all the producers -- easy enforcement.

        4          Our producers don't have to get into the

        5          monitoring and other resources requirements for

        6          effluent guidelines or permits and requirements

        7          and the no discharge goal supports nutrient

        8          utilization on farms for substantial production

        9          to perfect soil, air and water fallout.

       10                      The major deficiency of the existing

       11          no discharge criteria is there are no directions

       12          for discharge allowed for chronic and

       13          catastrophic rainfall.

       14                      Such rainfall, especially associated

       15          with hurricanes in the southeast, has resulted in

       16          several lagoon failures.  And NRCS in North

       17          Carolina has been to install emergency overflow

       18          to the lagoons for the size according to North

       19          Carolina requirements to protect lagoon integrity

       20          during such high rainfall events.

       21                      Many technical experts recommend

       22          lagoons to have land receiver systems during such

       23          chronic and catastrophic events, to avoid lagoon

       24          failures, although there is no regulatory

       25          justification for them.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      With the experience we have gained

        2          since 1972, we should give our producers

        3          direction as to how to handle the discharge

        4          that's allowed during these chronic and

        5          catastrophic conditions.

        6                      Therefore, we suggest that more

        7          attention be directed to this than to develop

        8          effluent guidelines to replace the no discharge

        9          goal.

       10                      In 1998, sixteen universities and

       11          fourteen states developed a proposal for a

       12          national center for manure and animal waste

       13          management.  This proposal was submitted to the

       14          USDA Fund for Rural America where it was

       15          identified as the number one proposal based on

       16          merit and peer review.

       17                      We believe the program proposed, to

       18          the extent that it addresses, a significant

       19          number of issues identified in the Draft

       20          Strategy.  And particularly Strategic Issue

       21          Number 4, Coordinated Research, Technical

       22          Innovation, Compliance Assistance and Technology

       23          Transfer.

       24                      We propose that this center, which

       25          includes experts from around the country, which

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        1          are already working together to utilize to help

        2          satisfy Option Number 1, to develop a national

        3          animal feeding operation and information and

        4          research centers.

        5                      We think this would be a very timely

        6          and effective way to be able to develop this

        7          virtual center type of concept to allow our

        8          producers to have the latest information to help

        9          them comply with these regulations.

       10                      Thank you.

       11                      MR. HICKS:  Questions?

       12                      MS. HUMISTON:  Not a question, but

       13          the portion of your proposal to Fund for Rural

       14          America describes what you're doing, and I would

       15          urge you to make sure that you include that in

       16          your written comments so that we have access to

       17          it.

       18                      MR. HUMENICK:  Yes, this would be

       19          forwarded by the Six A Consortium and also the

       20          group that put together this proposal the

       21          administrative --

       22                      MR. MCGHEE:  Could you expand on what

       23          exactly you mean by the no discharge

       24          requirements?  I think what you are saying is

       25          there are certain chronic conditions under what

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        1          there should be allowed a discharge.

        2                      Could you describe what those might

        3          be?

        4                      MR. HUMENICK:  I'm not saying that

        5          they should be allowed to discharge.  The current

        6          law does allow a discharge in excess of the

        7          twenty-four hour, twenty-five year storm.  That's

        8          what the 1972 amendment stated for the feedlot

        9          industry.

       10                      However, we never told them how they

       11          can discharge.  And so if we tell the producer he

       12          can do it, but we don't tell him how, and so that

       13          leaves him in a quandary.  And sometimes he just

       14          doesn't do anything.  And that's when we had

       15          lagoon toppings and lagoon failures.

       16                      MR. MCGHEE:  So what you are saying

       17          is twenty-five/twenty-four requirement can -- the

       18          no discharge but we need to be more specific in

       19          the guides and permits on exactly where they can

       20          discharge and how to design that?

       21                      MR. HUMENICK:  Yes.  If I can, there

       22          are a lot of different things that could be done.

       23          A lot of things that I think that we've had

       24          experience with, and I just feel we should take

       25          advantage of to give the producer some

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        1          directions.

        2                      They call us and we just can't tell

        3          them because we have no regulatory or legal basis

        4          for making the recommendation.

        5                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.

        6                      I would be calling for any additional

        7          speakers after the next two have spoken.

        8                      And then if any of the previous

        9          speakers would like to be reheard or have another

       10          point, we will hear those.

       11                      Sarah Strain.  There's one speaker

       12          after Ms. Strain that's recorded here.

       13                      MS. STRAIN:  My, my.  I met somebody

       14          out in the hall and they said this meeting was

       15          going on, so here I am.

       16                      I represent a Chattanooga Valley

       17          Resident Association from North Georgia,

       18          Kennesaw, Georgia.

       19                      We were -- I'm a wife, a mother, a

       20          homemaker, and I was living the America dream.

       21          And then we found out somebody was planning our

       22          America dream, and we decided we needed to find

       23          out who was planning it, what they were planning

       24          and where they were going with it.

       25                      So we started studying and

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          discovering all these agencies and all these laws

        2          and all these codes and all these ordinances that

        3          affect us -- the farmers, homemakers, citizens.

        4                      Rules, regulations guidelines,

        5          variances, mitigations, regulations based on

        6          sound science.  Bad water practice, soil

        7          displacement.  Don't disturb or build in

        8          wetlands, flood plains, and on twenty-five

        9          percent slopes.

       10                      We can all affect laws.  Call your

       11          congressman, tell him what you think.  Write him.

       12                      And you at the table have an even

       13          greater influence on our laws than we do as

       14          common, ordinary citizens because you have the

       15          influence.  You are the authority; we're not.  We

       16          just learn from you and your papers and your

       17          meetings.

       18                      Pollution, when we regulate farmers

       19          out of farms or for other reasons, the land is

       20          sold.  What then?  They are developed.  That land

       21          is developed.  It either becomes commercial or it

       22          becomes homes.

       23                      It's probably clear cut, and then we

       24          have no open spaces.  There are developers who

       25          can use plans with open spaces, but developers

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          not willing to do that unless they become

        2          educated.  And I think this and other meetings

        3          are mainly beneficial for education for the

        4          common, ordinary citizen to find out what is

        5          available, what can be done and what other people

        6          have done.

        7                      From agriculture farms to house

        8          farms, that's what we're becoming.  The

        9          developers come in, you have buildings and

       10          asphalt where once you had its own natural

       11          pollution control of fields, forests, grass and

       12          soil.

       13                      A form of pollution that developers

       14          have is clear cutting, taking everything off the

       15          soil, going all the way up to the rivers and

       16          streams, putting sediment in the rivers and

       17          streams.  And then you have a problem with the

       18          free flowing streams.

       19                      Our farmers are really not the only

       20          problem.  They are not the only problem.

       21                      They need to be -- these developers

       22          really -- and I understand money.  I understand

       23          making a living.  But the farmers are making a

       24          living.

       25                      Now, when does an agricultural entity

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          become an industrial entity?  You were discussing

        2          how many chicken houses would it take to make

        3          this woman happy that she just has a few on her

        4          land.

        5                      That needs to be addressed in a

        6          written paper:  When does an agricultural entity

        7          become an industrial entity?  Thank you.

        8                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  We have one

        9          other speaker that's listed here, Joe Fetzer.

       10                      MR. FETZER:  I'd like to ask this

       11          distinguished panel if you feel like that

       12          accomplishing your goals in this issue has been a

       13          piece of cake, or do you feel like you just now

       14          starting?

       15                      MS. HUMISTON:  Just starting.

       16                      MR. FETZER:  I'm a has been, as far

       17          as a farmer, as a dairy farmer goes.  I'm still a

       18          grain farmer, but I have been in the dairy

       19          business almost fifteen years of my lifetime.  So

       20          I think I have a vantage point that is not under

       21          tension.  I think you need to particularly note

       22          these gentlemen, particularly the one from

       23          Florida and others that have stressed the

       24          hardships out here on these farms.

       25                      You have a piece of cake today, the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          American way.  You are blessed with an abundance

        2          of food and fiber.  But if you want to impose the

        3          oppression of all this regulation, you will

        4          dramatically change what we know of America

        5          today.  You will change the family farm.  It will

        6          be gone as far as for most farms.

        7                      I think what we need to do is --

        8          we're about this backwards.  This woman that

        9          spoke from Sumner County -- to address her

       10          concerns and the farmer's concerns, what we need

       11          to do is to go about it the America way, to offer

       12          incentives for reaching the goals of their

       13          neighbors being satisfied with the odor concerns.

       14                      I know that this is a distinguished

       15          panel.  I know that we have achieved high levels

       16          of learning in this country.  But there's no one

       17          in any government regulatory or educational

       18          authority that knows it all.  The farmers don't

       19          either, but they have been trying to do the best

       20          that they could with what they had.

       21                      They have honestly and earnestly been

       22          trying to be good stewards.  And if they are

       23          given incentive programs to do this instead of

       24          regulatory loopholes to crawl through so that we

       25          can have a few more regulators out here, then --

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          and I propose we'll wind up with a bigger mess

        2          than what we have got, if you continue on this

        3          way.

        4                      You people that are regulators will

        5          not been happy once you learn that where this

        6          incentive is really coming from -- we have had

        7          this law on this book for twenty-five years, why

        8          has it not been imposed?

        9                      Where this is really coming from is

       10          the United Nations trying to tell us what to do

       11          down here in America, where we need to be working

       12          out between our neighbors.  We need to have

       13          voluntary incentive programs.

       14                      You're not going to go tell me if I

       15          took a truckload of manure and dumped it in the

       16          Ocoee River, and someone saw it that there's not

       17          something that you can do to me.

       18                      Now, we have laws on the books today.

       19          You are trying to manage our farms.  The farmers

       20          are the experts.  They are the ones that are

       21          experts on the farm.  They have taken other

       22          expert's premier expertise from the

       23          universities -- that has been a lot of input gone

       24          through.

       25                      And they garner through it and they

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          apply it to their own niche.  The universities

        2          can find the things that work best on their test

        3          locations, but what works on Mr. Barker's farm or

        4          other people's farms is different.

        5                      What we need is to pursue our goals,

        6          the American way, instead of the dictatorial way.

        7                      Thank you.

        8                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mr. Fetzer.

        9                      Additional speakers that have signed

       10          up?

       11                      Would any of the previous speakers

       12          like an additional minute or two?  In the order

       13          that you signed up, if you don't mind.

       14                      MR. DARLING:  Thank you very much.

       15          There were a couple of other points that I did

       16          want to bring up.  Some of the dairy farmer

       17          members here have talked about the proposal in

       18          there to use check off funds for cost sharing

       19          improvements on farms.

       20                      It is my opinion that were you to go

       21          after that, and they are already in the dairy

       22          industry paying fifteen cent a hundred weight

       23          check off, if you were to add to that or use some

       24          of that for this kind of a purpose, I think the

       25          reaction would be strong.  I think it be would be

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          negative.

        2                      And I think the dairy industry would

        3          probably vote that check off program out of

        4          existence so that they have that whole thing out

        5          of the way.  And that would be detrimental to

        6          them from a marketing standpoint and wouldn't

        7          achieve the goal that you wanted to achieve.

        8                      Secretary, you asked one of the dairy

        9          farmers about what would you do, and I would like

       10          to respond to that in regard to what is happening

       11          in Florida.

       12                      EPA has already told our DEP that

       13          they have to go out and inspect our dairies

       14          because we are also -- the entire state of

       15          Florida is under the coastal management, the DEP

       16          is going to inspect every dairy out there.

       17                      And they were kind enough to ask my

       18          input on how they best go about that, and I

       19          suggested to them that they needed to get with

       20          qualified Ag engineers and university research

       21          people.

       22                      And I love the remarks by Dr.

       23          Humenick.   I have known him for some time, and

       24          those remarks were very well worth listening to

       25          and hopefully considering seriously in those

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          types of events.

        2                      But that they develop criteria on

        3          what they would be using to inspect the farms.

        4          Notify our farmers what that criteria is going to

        5          be.  Come out and do the inspection and notify

        6          the farm of what the deficiencies are, give him a

        7          reasonable amount of time to fix those

        8          deficiencies and give him sources where he can go

        9          to.

       10                      And we are looking at other

       11          alternatives in Florida other than the Natural

       12          Resource Conservation Service.  So that's going

       13          to be one of them.

       14                      But we're looking at Rural Water

       15          Association in what Florida.  That was a new one

       16          on me and that, you know, provide the assistance

       17          and give them a reasonable amount of time and

       18          then be prepared to go after the bad apple.

       19                      You have got a few knotheads that you

       20          just have to hit upside the head, and if you

       21          would do that it would make it so much easier for

       22          everybody else.

       23                      Why comply, and I have get this

       24          complaint all the time, why am I complying when

       25          Joe Doe over here has got it running on down the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          road.

        2                      You know, you really just need

        3          simply -- you talk about enforcing what you have

        4          already got.  Please do.

        5                      But there is an awful lot of talk in

        6          here about more regulation and revising, and it's

        7          that two tier thing that I think is very much of

        8          a negative.  Let's give what we have got a chance

        9          to work.

       10                      Thank you.

       11                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  Mr. Moore,

       12          you were needing some more time a few minutes

       13          ago.  Would you like to speak again?

       14                      MR. MOORE:  I will try again.

       15                      MR. HICKS:  And then I believe I saw

       16          Ms. Glover wanting to speak.

       17                      Why don't you come on forward and be

       18          ready, Ms. Glover?

       19                      MR. MOORE:  I'd like to start off

       20          with saying that ninety-five percent of the

       21          farmers in our area -- someone from that farm has

       22          to work off the farm to support the agriculture.

       23                      You can name very few of them that a

       24          hundred percent income comes from the farm -- no

       25          matter what -- dairy, chicken, beef, hog, the

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          crops or what.  It's just not there.

        2                      And then, you know, to put us under

        3          other regulations and other obligations makes it

        4          harder for us to continue farming, when we're

        5          doing such a good job that one of us can feed a

        6          hundred and thirty people around this world, it

        7          speaks highly for what the farmers have done.

        8                      We have done in through conservation

        9          of our resources, not just the land but the

       10          animal manure that comes from it.  We have done a

       11          good job of conserving on the larger scale.

       12                      But then, you know, all it takes for

       13          me to get in trouble is for one person to call

       14          EPA and not satisfied with what I'm doing and the

       15          way I'm doing it.

       16                      We can't hide.  We're out there in

       17          the open.  Why not make available to us that

       18          person's name that is reporting us?  It's not

       19          wrong, is it?  Is confidentiality so strong that

       20          I can't know who is fighting me?

       21                      It's like taking shots -- shooting in

       22          the dark.  You don't know.  We have a hard enough

       23          time anyway.  And it may be that we may have to

       24          have a farmer protection agency.

       25                      I think that some of the people --

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          that were so strong against farmers are kind of

        2          like the congressman from Missouri that has since

        3          passed away, but I heard him speak in Atlanta,

        4          and I thought it might apply to this.

        5                      Back when the animal activist rights

        6          people were so strong back in the '70s, he said

        7          they had a sheep herders convention in Minnesota

        8          or Montana.  And they were talking about the

        9          problem they have with coyotes, talking about

       10          poisoning them, killing them and various other

       11          methods.

       12                      And one of the animal rights people

       13          got up and said, what y'all need to do is catch

       14          those coyotes and castrate them.

       15                      And one old sheep farmer got up and

       16          said, lady, you don't understand our problem.

       17          Them coyotes are killing our sheep, they are not

       18          raping them.  They're raping them, they're not

       19          killing them.

       20                      You get my message.  They are killing

       21          our sheep; they are not raping them.

       22                      So you're killing us with all the

       23          regulations.

       24                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Mr.  Moore.

       25          Ms. Glover.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      MS. GLOVER:  I think I have this in

        2          my comments, but I would hope somebody in this

        3          whole group, before you have leave, this study

        4          over a period of thirty years will take a serious

        5          use look at what has happened to our contract

        6          growers in this country.

        7                      You can't study this issue and mega

        8          corporations and these contracts and the

        9          situations that our farmers end up in and

       10          sometimes they are suffered -- presented this

       11          great deal and they will go into debt for maybe

       12          three hundred thousand dollars to do there

       13          chickens houses or facilities.

       14                      And in reality, it has been shown

       15          that these growers make about sixteen thousand

       16          dollars a year.  So I hope somebody will take the

       17          time to take a look at what has happened to our

       18          contract growers.

       19                      And secondly, I would like to ask

       20          this question especially of the EPA.  If the CAFO

       21          regulations that pertain to factory farms and

       22          industrial agriculture and the Clean Water Act,

       23          if those regulations had been enforced, would we

       24          have arrived at this point?

       25                      If they had really been enforced,

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        1          would we have arrived at this point?

        2                      I really think that the controls have

        3          really gone on the large mega corporations and

        4          that if they had developed the kinds of plans

        5          that they needed to, I sort of doubt that we

        6          would be sitting here today. This is what I think

        7          about it.  Take a look at that.  Thank you.

        8                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you, Ms. Glover.

        9          Additional speakers, would you identify yourself.

       10                      MR. ROSSE:  I'm Mark Rosse from the

       11          University of Georgia, funded by the Pollutions

       12          Preventions Systems Division of Georgia, which is

       13          a rather unique relationship.

       14                      I had several comments, first off,

       15          and my whole family farms or is in agricultural

       16          research or extension.  So I'm -- I have a pretty

       17          significant Ag background.

       18                      And you have heard several speakers

       19          here today say that America has the most abundant

       20          food supply and the cheapest food resources.  The

       21          main reason for that is our farmers, but also for

       22          years and years we have invested in agricultural

       23          research, and we have the best extension network

       24          anywhere in the world.

       25                      Our emphasis has always been on

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        1          production until, say, the last ten years or so.

        2          I think right now at the universities we're

        3          seeing more and more research into animal waste

        4          management and some of these solutions are being

        5          developed.

        6                      Dr. Humenick was talking about a

        7          proposal for the Fund for Rural America.  That's

        8          one method, but when you're looking at how to

        9          allocate these resources, I urge you to look at

       10          using those resources for additional research,

       11          rather than some of the other measures in there.

       12                      The second best use of research or

       13          resources, in my opinion, is cost share.  And the

       14          plan stresses all the NRCS cost share programs

       15          that currently exists, but I know from being in

       16          the field in Georgia and working with producers

       17          that have problems, sometimes they can't get any

       18          cost share, you know.

       19                      We're targeting resources in certain

       20          areas, and they're not in the right area, you

       21          know, they can't get equipped and then they

       22          are -- the cost share programs, they look good on

       23          paper, but they're not always there in the field.

       24                      And you need to recognize that when

       25          you say well, we're giving them assistance to

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        1          implement these things on a voluntary basis.

        2                      Nutrient management and P -- we have

        3          had heard some farmers mention that.  I have been

        4          on farms, I'm trying to do the right thing.  I

        5          have adopted the NRCS standards, and they have

        6          high phosphorus levels in the soil.  You try to

        7          do nutrient management, based on phosphorus they

        8          go with no application.

        9                      On poultry farms, you have got a

       10          solid waste trying to ship it off the farm.  When

       11          they have got liquid lagoons and irrigation

       12          systems and high soil P levels, what can you tell

       13          that farmer?

       14                      I mean, I can't use the NRCS strategy

       15          on that farm because it says no P application if

       16          you are at excessively high levels.  We need to

       17          address that in a plan and figure out what were

       18          going to tell those farmers to do.

       19                      Certified plans, you know, I hope

       20          that every Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan

       21          is done by somebody that's trained, but you have

       22          got to realize that's going to cost a lot of

       23          money.

       24                      If you want private industry to do

       25          it, they are not going to do it for free.  So you

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        1          have got to put your money where your mouth is if

        2          you wanted them to take over and do that job.

        3                      Also on these inspections, working

        4          for the Pollution Prevention Assistance Division

        5          in Georgia, I have seen it a lot with industries.

        6          They do a lot better job of going to a plant and

        7          doing inspection than somebody at the EPD does

        8          because they are trained in pollution prevention.

        9                      When you're sending inspectors out on

       10          the farms, let's make this a win/win situation

       11          and have them trained in agriculture in current

       12          production practices.

       13                      When you're sending somebody to the

       14          farm, they are going to be able to make

       15          suggestions on how that farmer can improve his

       16          operation and not just be there for a hundred

       17          percent regulatory purpose.

       18                      So look at who we're hiring to do

       19          these inspections.

       20                      Finally, a lot of industries moving

       21          to ISO standards and doing things in

       22          environmentally friendly ways and trying to

       23          capitalize on that by raising prices.

       24                      When we're looking at these industry

       25          initiatives and things industries can do, I think

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        1          we can do a lot with labeling and have the

        2          consumers bear some the cost for environmentally

        3          sound production.  That's one way of capitalizing

        4          on it.

        5                      It's not really mentioned in the plan

        6          and there's a thousand reasons it won't work, but

        7          I have seen cases where it does work.

        8                      Organic vegetables in grocery stores

        9          are a lot more expensive, but they are being sold

       10          and consumers are buying them.  They are paying

       11          more for them.

       12                      Can we label some of our other

       13          agricultural products in that manner and get the

       14          consumer to bear some of the costs?  It should be

       15          considered in the plan.  Thank you.

       16                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  I would ask

       17          you to sign this list, if you don't mind, for the

       18          record.

       19                      Would you do the same please with

       20          your name?

       21                      MR. HASKEW:  My name is James Haskew.

       22          I'm a farmer in an adjoining county.  As most

       23          farmers, I wear various hats.  I'm a certified

       24          crop advisor.  I'm president of my local farm

       25          bureau and also I have served on the local county

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        1          ASCS, which now we call FSA, and the problem that

        2          is really -- it's been spoken of tonight but it's

        3          been overlooked is cost sharing.

        4                      Having served on the ASCS committee,

        5          I have reviewed many times cost sharing

        6          applications for these waste management plans.

        7                      For instance, particularly on one

        8          dairy farm, it started out with the just

        9          approximately a fifteen thousand dollar cost

       10          share and would probably have took eighteen

       11          months to have implemented it.  It turned into

       12          almost a hundred thousand dollars worth of cost

       13          share and I think that the Department of

       14          Agriculture pitched in some.

       15                      It took five years.  Let's get it --

       16          if we're going to have a program like this, let's

       17          get it realistic where a farmer, as has already

       18          been spoken, they are the professionals here

       19          because they are feeding the world.

       20                      Let's look at what they know and take

       21          some of their ideas instead of sending out NRCS

       22          specialists that claim they know everything and

       23          look at your operation together and get this

       24          thing narrowed down to about a year, and maybe we

       25          would get this thing going.

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        1                      The farmers will work voluntarily.

        2          It's a proven fact.  Look at Save Our Soil from

        3          earlier years of soil conservation service.

        4          Farmers are voluntary leaders and they will work

        5          with it, if is offered.  Thank you.

        6                      MR. HICKS:  I would ask that you sign

        7          for the record.  Are there questions of the last

        8          speakers?

        9                      Did congressman Zach Wamp show up?

       10          We're in his territory, and I guess we need his

       11          permission to carry on.

       12                      AUDIENCE MEMBER:  He has the head of

       13          the Nuclear regulatory agency coming into town

       14          today and he had to attend.

       15                      MR. HICKS:  All right.  We are still

       16          several minutes away from the appointed 7:00

       17          time.

       18                      With this time, would this panel like

       19          to direct any questions or any comments or

       20          solicit any comments?

       21                      MS. HUMISTON:  There is another hand.

       22                      MR. HICKS:  Yes, sir.  Would you come

       23          to the mike.

       24                      MR. GARNER:  I'm Bob Garner.  I'm a

       25          dairy farmer from Memphis, Tennessee and I would

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        1          like to say to this panel that I'm very heartened

        2          by what I have heard here today.

        3                      If you will do what you say and the

        4          government agencies all cooperate with one

        5          another and cooperate with local agencies, such

        6          as soil conservation local districts and local

        7          extension people and our local university people,

        8          and also with the farmers on a one to one basis,

        9          I think you can achieve what you want to achieve.

       10          And I think it will be good for everybody.

       11                      But what farmers are really afraid

       12          of, and I know you have heard that here tonight,

       13          they don't want somebody coming down there that

       14          don't know anything about their operation and

       15          have only read a book, and telling them what they

       16          have got to do and fining them for whatever they

       17          are doing.

       18                      I mean, they have got to know what is

       19          right.

       20                      Now, about ten years ago, I had a

       21          good neighbor, and he reported me for getting

       22          manure in the creek.

       23                      I had been milking in that particular

       24          place for twenty some odd years at that time.

       25          And every few weeks, there would be somebody from

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        1          Water Quality in Nashville come down.

        2                      Well, they came several times.  They

        3          came one day in March when we had had a big rain.

        4          Now, of course manure was going to the creek.

        5          There was no way to avoid that.

        6                      Well, we had people that came out

        7          there and they told us what to do.  And it would

        8          have been a disaster if I would have done that.

        9                      And you know, I had no guarantee that

       10          what I done was going to be right, no matter how

       11          much money I spent, nobody could say, now, if you

       12          do this you will be in compliance and you can

       13          produce milk and nobody will bother you.

       14                      Well, after a while, they told me,

       15          said, well, we're going to have to do something.

       16          We have got too many complaints.  They didn't say

       17          too many people.  They said too many complaints.

       18          I said, who's complaining.

       19                      And they said, we can't tell you

       20          that.

       21                      Well, anybody that calls them three

       22          times a day, the same person, and complain and

       23          they said, we have got so many complaints, you

       24          know, we have got to do something.

       25                      So after several months of having

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        1          people come by and tell me what I ought to do and

        2          what they told me would not work.  I mean, I

        3          would be in worse shape if I had done that than I

        4          would where I was.

        5                      So we went and built a brand new

        6          outfit.  We started out spending a hundred and

        7          sixty thousand dollars, and we wound up spend

        8          four hundred thousand.  Now, this was borrowed

        9          money; it wasn't something I had in the bank.

       10                      We spent a hundred thousand dollars

       11          of that to control our waste.  We have got three

       12          miles of buried pipe.  We have got three hundred

       13          and fifty acres that we put to waste on from a

       14          hundred and sixty cows that we keep confined all

       15          the time.  This is milking herd.

       16                      We have done all this on our own.  We

       17          have not asked a nickel from anybody, but we

       18          still don't know if what we're doing is right,

       19          because we really have anything to go by and

       20          nobody has told us now -- if you do this, you

       21          will be all right and nobody will bother you.

       22                      Now, I know whatever you do or

       23          whatever we do is subject to change over time,

       24          everything is.  But I think we have done all we

       25          can do, and I would welcome anybody that will

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          come to my place that knows what he's doing that

        2          can tell me this is what you do and you will be

        3          all right; nobody will bother you.

        4                      And I think that's what we need.  We

        5          need somebody that knows what's happening and

        6          what is going on on the farm, not somebody that

        7          just knows what they have read in a textbook.

        8                      Now, I had one young man come from

        9          Water Quality, and this has been ten years ago

       10          and he is probably no longer with them, but he

       11          told me that I couldn't stir my lagoon and pump

       12          that waste out, that all I could do was take the

       13          super, he called it, off the top.  Well, what am

       14          I going to do what that lagoon when it gets full

       15          because it's going to fill up with solids if I

       16          don't stir it up and get it out.

       17                      He said, well, you will have to dig

       18          another lagoon.  I said, well, what am I going to

       19          do then?  I said, soon I will have my whole farm

       20          covered up with lagoons.  You know, we have got

       21          do have some direction from somebody that

       22          understands the problem.

       23                      I think you're going about it in the

       24          right direction.  If you get people to cooperate

       25          and get all the agencies to cooperate and get

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          people to cooperate that knows what he's doing

        2          and can talk to the people on an individual

        3          basis, where they are not afraid of being fined

        4          for what they are doing, then I think you're

        5          going in the right direction.

        6                      Thank you.

        7                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you for your

        8          comments.  Can you identify the county that

        9          you're from?

       10                      MR. GARNER: Lawrence County.

       11                      MR. HICKS:  Any other speakers?

       12          Panelists, would you like to makes comments?

       13                      Sorry come ahead, you take priority.

       14                      MS. BALDWIN:  My name is Regina

       15          Baldwin.  I did not come here with any intentions

       16          of speaking today.

       17                      However, let me say that I was raised

       18          on a dairy farm and I now live on a poultry farm.

       19          We have a lagoon on the dairy farm that's there

       20          through cost share through cooperation with the

       21          soil conservation office.

       22                      If you come to the poultry farm, you

       23          will find a chicken composter that's there

       24          through the same cost share programs.

       25                      We, as farmers, know what is best or

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        1          our land; if not, we couldn't stay in business.

        2          We are not -- we want to keep the small farm.  We

        3          want to raise our families on these small farms.

        4          That's what important to us.  We're not going to

        5          go out there and destroy that because we see it

        6          as a way of life.

        7                      As for the lady that's concerned with

        8          the chicken houses, I understand that concern.

        9          However, as far as her concern about a contract,

       10          I read my own contract before I sign it.  If I

       11          can't -- I don't need to be in the business.

       12                      You will find that most farmers are

       13          smart enough to take care of their own problems

       14          and address their own problems through

       15          cooperation with the soil conservation offices.

       16          And we ask y'all to recognize that and we

       17          appreciate your cooperation.  Thank you.

       18                      MR. HICKS:  Thank you.  I will get

       19          you to sign as well.

       20                      Am I about to overlook other

       21          speakers?

       22                      MR. LINDSEY:  Let me just close by

       23          saying thank up very much again for everyone

       24          coming out here and sharing your views.

       25                      We have got a lot of notes to go

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        1          through.  We have got a big job ahead of us.  We

        2          will take it seriously and we will cooperate, in

        3          the context of the last speaker's suggestion, and

        4          do our best to come up with the strategy that

        5          makes the most sense for the most people.

        6                      Let me suggest though that you do --

        7          a lot of you have taken a lot of time in thinking

        8          through your statements here today.

        9                      Let me suggest that, even though we

       10          have got a record of it, a verbatim record, that

       11          you do send in those comments.  You have taken a

       12          lot of time to think them through and just write

       13          them down and send them in.  That would helpful.

       14          Make sure we get it right, okay.

       15                      And we would appreciate that.  Thank

       16          you very much for coming.

       17                      MS. HUMISTON:  Definitely after that,

       18          I don't know about most of you, but I know me.

       19          Sometimes after these meetings, driving home or

       20          after a good nights sleep, I think of what I

       21          really wanted to say.

       22                      But what I will close with that

       23          tonight because I do want y'all to understand

       24          that we are taking this quite seriously.

       25                      As I mentioned to you, I have been on

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        1          this job five months come this Sunday.  And prior

        2          to that, I came out of California, where one of

        3          my saddest duties was to resign on a supervisor

        4          on a soil and water conservation district.

        5                      In fact, there in that capacity, I

        6          was very proud last year to be elected

        7          unanimously as president of the state association

        8          of our soil and water conservation district.

        9                      We have got a proud tradition there

       10          trying to work with both the agricultural and

       11          environmental community to find solutions to

       12          these type of problems that we've been talking

       13          about tonight.

       14                      And I really want to congratulate all

       15          of you tonight.  The comments have been

       16          excellent, and I think it's wonderful you took

       17          the time to come here and truly from my heart,

       18          this is what democracy is about.

       19                      But I think we have both got to stop

       20          and really look at the realities out there. The

       21          agricultural community currently is one to two

       22          percent of voters in this nation.

       23                      And if you haven't admitted that to

       24          yourself, you better start doing it.  Eighty to

       25          ninety percent of the voters are living in

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          cities, and they are enjoying that bountiful food

        2          y'all are raising.

        3                      But poll after poll, study after

        4          study shows that they have a strong -- very

        5          strong environmental ethic.  And I know farmers

        6          do too, so we have got to work together to find

        7          solutions, as we've all said today.

        8                      Please get those comments in where

        9          you think we can make this plan work together.  I

       10          have to admit to how that I'm probably a little

       11          more optimistic than what I've heard in here

       12          tonight because I have seen it work.

       13                      One of the projects I worked on in

       14          California was a joint project in EPA Region 9

       15          and the California Cattleman's Association.  And

       16          that was to meet clean water goals for coastal

       17          zones, so the gentleman that spoke about coastal

       18          zoning, you know how strict I'm talking.

       19                      And that what about three or four

       20          years ago, and we put together a water quality

       21          management plan, that cattlemen and the wool

       22          growers signed onto.  The farm bureau signed

       23          onto, EPA Region 9, the State Water Board, the

       24          enviromental groups including NRDC and Sierra

       25          Club.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      Everybody signed onto it and what has

        2          happened now, and now we have got four or five

        3          years ago.  It can be done.  It was exactly along

        4          what y'all said today, particularly the woman

        5          that mentioned farms being to write a lot of

        6          their own plans.  That was a strong component of

        7          that.

        8                      And if you will notice in the

        9          strategy, I think we should beef this up -- more

       10          opportunities for people who are technically

       11          competent and others who would like consultants

       12          to do that.

       13                      Get those kind of comments in to us,

       14          and we will get that in the plan.  But don't

       15          think that these folks here are necessarily your

       16          enemies.  I know a couple of you have really gone

       17          after the EPA tonight.

       18                      But what I have noticed in the last

       19          two or three years is that when the cattlemen

       20          came under attack by the environmental group, it

       21          was EPA Region 9 who stood up and said, you leave

       22          them alone.

       23                      They came forward and put together a

       24          good plan and they have been implementing them,

       25          these cattlemen, and they are years ahead of any

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1          implementation schedule we asked them to do, and

        2          you leave them alone.  And I have seen them stand

        3          up in court and do that, too.

        4                      So, the partnership can work if we'll

        5          all work together.  And the last thing I will say

        6          is we said we mentioned budget cuts earlier and

        7          the reason I mentioned that is because the

        8          federal government is not going to come in here

        9          and solve this problem.  We don't have the money

       10          anymore than anybody else does.

       11                      It's going to take the federal

       12          government, the state government, the local

       13          governments.  It's going to take public and it's

       14          going to take private, it's going to take

       15          universities.  It's going to take a lot of

       16          resources, you're absolutely right.

       17                      So again, get your comments in, reach

       18          out to other people and approach them and get

       19          comments.  I do think we have got a strategy that

       20          is going to work here.  I have been very

       21          heartened just listening to your comments

       22          tonight.

       23                      MR. LINDSEY:  One more point.  A few

       24          of us have to catch airplanes, so we'll be

       25          elsewhere.

                               ACCUSCRIBE COURT REPORTING


        1                      But a number of people will be here

        2          for, you know, after the meeting for some time.

        3          So if you have specific points you want to make

        4          to someone -- have questions or discussions you

        5          want to have feel, free to approach us.  Thank

        6          you very much.

        7                      MR. HICKS:  Well, I'm proud of you

        8          have for your sophisticated statements and the

        9          forthright manner in which you delivered them.

       10                      So I thank you for you good

       11          statements.  And I thank you for your attendance.

       12                      To the panelists, I appreciate your

       13          patience and your indulgence.

       14                      And for the record, Go Vols!  Merry

       15          Christmas.











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